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Disliking on-line gun sales

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by ID-shooting, Jul 13, 2013.

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  1. ID-shooting

    ID-shooting Member

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    Have sold and traded online before but this takes the cake.

    Posted my Ruger Single Six on local on-line listings. Two hits from there.

    One was a guy from Oregon. Told him I could not sell to him legally unless he was willing to Pay FFL transfer fees. Then he says he would a relative who lived in my state pick it up and pay. Told him that was a straw purchase and I would not do that.

    Second hit was a guy who agreed on a price but was up front he would refuse to sign a bill of sale nor would he let me copy/record the info from his ID. I told him to buy someone else's gun.

    Both gave me sob stories about not being criminals. My reply to both was, "ya, because criminals ALWAYS come out and declare they are." Note heavy sarcasm.

    Sheesh. Am I being too paranoid, restrictive, or stringent?
     
  2. MErl

    MErl Member

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    If not required to go though a FFL does straw purchase even apply? It would be the person that carries it over state lines that gets in any trouble right?

    Your gun, your terms. Don't worry about it and find a buyer that'll accept them. Plenty of discussion about BOS here with strong feelings on both sides.
     
  3. Telekinesis

    Telekinesis Member

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    On the first one I would say you were right on point. No need to get involved with something like that. The second is more of a personal preference. I've done face to face deals with and without bills of sale, and several where it was just a plain trade and a handshake. The refusal to sign a bill of sale does seem kinda strange, but I completely understand not wanting to give someone else a complete copy of their ID.

    I have had a few poor internet transactions lately as well. One scam on a gun I have been trying to find for a few years, and another seller who just wouldn't respond to my offer to buy his gun. I guess its just one of those things you have to deal with.
     
  4. JohnKSa

    JohnKSa Member

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    It wouldn't be a straw purchase because that's a very narrowly defined crime. But it would definitely be a crime to participate in an attempt to circumvent the federal laws that require interstate firearm sales to go through an FFL.
     
  5. Rock185

    Rock185 Member

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    ID, you absolutely did the right thing, IMHO.
     
  6. 22-rimfire

    22-rimfire Member

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    I'm glad you had the fortitude to say NO to these potential sales on the terms of the buyers.
     
  7. TennJed

    TennJed Member

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    Just put in the add the you "HAVE TO SHOW ID AND SIGN BILL OF SALE NO EXCEPTIONS.......NO OUT OF STATE SALES NO EXCEPTIONS!!!!!'"

    Online is a great cheap tool to get your listing in front of a lot of people. Just make it clear in the add. If someone responds and try's to talk you out of it, ignore them until they get the message. You should absolutely not sell to someone out if state.
     
  8. 460Shooter

    460Shooter Member

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    Sounds like you gave them the right answer.
     
  9. 22-rimfire

    22-rimfire Member

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    That will scare off a certain portion of potential buyers. But from my point of view, good riddin. Many simply do not want to answer any questions and it raises red flags for me. Yes, make the listing clear. I might add, no out of state sales except through a FFL dealer.
     
  10. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

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    The first one -- as JohnKSa said, is not a straw purchase (because no one is filling out the paperwork) but is pretty clearly setting up to break federal law.

    The second one is just personal preference. If you're going to require to COPY DOWN someone's identifying information, PLEASE say so up front. Don't drag some guy halfway across your state just to spring on him that you'll require having his identity on record.

    If participating in a private sale, a seller can SEE my state ID, but they may not record it. Bill of sale is fine by me. I'll sign it, but I'm not putting all my personal ID info on it.
     
  11. 22-rimfire

    22-rimfire Member

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    It is real easy to just photograph the ID these days with a cell phone. Not saying that I would like it much, but it is not hard. You can also just put a piece of tape over the address. View it but don't record it.
     
  12. ATCDoktor

    ATCDoktor Member

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    I have purchased a wheel barrow full of guns over the course of my life in private sales with nothing exchanged but the money, a handshake and a smile.

    I will go on to share that under no circumstances would I let a random person copy my info off an ID regardless of the circumstances.

    I will follow that up with that I would not allow anyone in any private firearms transaction to know my address or know where I live and that I have guns in my home.

    Never.

    No one on this planet owns a firearm rare enough/cool enough or interesting enough to allow me to handover my personal info to a private individual.

    If your state requires this kind of follow up then I would expect that handling the transaction through an FFL would be in order as their paperwork is bound by the Privacy Act and is treated with the same as if it were personal tax information.

    If this is just "you" requiring this info (and not the state) then "you" probably need evaluate how your conducting your sales.

    If the state does not require you to gather this info then why are you asking for it?

    What are you going to use it for?

    Is it a "Just in Case" with regards to police follow up on a crime committed with a weapon that no longer belongs to you?

    Regardless of whether or not you have extracted any info from an individual during a private transaction, if that firearm is used in a crime and there's a 4473 for that firearm with your name on it, your gonna get a visit from the cops.

    This kind of police interaction happens everyday with regards to weapons sold legally between sellers with no documentation and the outcome is always the same "I sold the gun to some dude at a gunshow" and thats the end of it.

    You want to feel good about the sale, consign it to an FFL have them do the paperwork and let them worry who they are selling to and collecting and storing personal data.
     
  13. 12131

    12131 Member

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    You ask me for a copy of my ID/DL for a FTF deal? I'd tell you to hit the road, too. You can take a glance at it, but you ain't getting a copy.
     
  14. Impureclient

    Impureclient Member

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    What does having a copy of someone's ID do after you sell off a gun?
     
  15. 22-rimfire

    22-rimfire Member

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    It is simply a record of precisely who you sold a firearm to; nothing more. I have done sales both ways. It just depends. I always record to whom I sell a firearm to in my computer files if I have the information. I really don't care where they live as long as it is in the same state as me.

    You see, I would rather sell the gun to a FFL dealer or toss it in the landfill than do something that bothers me in terms of a private sale.
     
  16. ATCDoktor

    ATCDoktor Member

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    So you sell a gun in a private sale, you demand and receive the buyers personal info, store it in your computer, he takes the gun and kills a hundred school kids and you having his personal info in your computer is going to do what exactly?

    Make you feel better?

    Please.

    It serves no purpose to extract this info from buyers during private sales.

    Having it/storing it will not prevent a crime unless the seller is committing a crime by not gathering it.

    The rules for private sales in my state say that I have to "sight" the ID. All I have to do is "see" it and that's all I do.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2013
  17. TennJed

    TennJed Member

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    I am not required to even look at them in my state and I don't. But I can respect someone wanting to do it. I traded a gun a couple of years ago to a guy that was just a fascinating man with a ton of unusual guns. Didn't even bother to get his name. I really wish I had because I would love to do business with him again. I have no idea how to contact him.

    The best thing about all this is you do not have to buy from them if you don't like his rules. Crazy how these things work. You can shop elsewhere if you don't want to meet his requirements. His gun, his rules
     
  18. ATCDoktor

    ATCDoktor Member

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    Certainly true and I have refused this kind of invasive nonsense many times but with that said, the op's the one crying that he can't get anyone to play by "his" rules and allow him to copy their info off an ID.

    His gun, his rules but don't come here crying a river because you can't get folks to be stupid with their personal info, especially when the state doesn't require it.

    And especially when it (private collection of personal info) serves absolutely no purpose under the sun with respect to disposing of his firearm (other than satisfying his internal need to gather it).

    Again, this is his post speaking to his recent dislike of online gun sales because he can't get people to let him copy info off their license/sign a document.

    I'm just pointing out that his requests are unreasonable especially if the state doesn't require him to gather that info.

    He should lighten up or sell his guns through an FFL if he wants to be rid of them (unless he's a private investigator and gonna do a background check with the info he's extracting from these people he sells guns to).
     
  19. ID-shooting

    ID-shooting Member

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    It is for the lability and creep feeling I got when he told me flat out he wanted a completely paperless transaction without me prompting him. Had he not said that, maybe I would have just glanced at it. My "spidey sense" was going bonkers with this guy.

    I agree nothing would prevent the hypothetical killing spree but when the cops showed up to my door, I could at least point them in the right direction.
     
  20. ATCDoktor

    ATCDoktor Member

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    Well ID I'll back up to your original post and refer to the following:

    And will answer your statement by responding yes to all these queries.

    Let me share that I'm a retired Marine with 25 years of service and work in a building full of retired Marines who would and do pay a premium for a "No paperwork" sales on firearms.

    They aren't criminals (all have secret or above clearances) but will not buy a papered firearm for the unreasonable fear (in my mind) that the "government" that we all work for will (one day) come and take them.

    They want them "off the books" (anybody's books) and will pay to have them that way.

    They're not criminals, just former Marines who see the direction the country/government is going and would like to legally possess weapons free of documentation.

    At present they see that it's still legal to purchase firearms this way (unpapered) and before there's some kind of federal mandate that requires all sales to be handled by an FFL they want to secure all they can get off the "books".
     
  21. 2@low8

    2@low8 Member

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    Me: Former uniform patrol officer.

    Actual Case #1: Subject, who had a CHL, is arrested for DUI and subsequent pat down produced a stolen firearm. He advised that he bought it from an individual he that could not positively identify. The gun was traced to the owner from whom it was stolen and no one else. The subject was also charged felony possession of stolen property and it stuck.


    Me: Former homicide investigator.

    Actual Case #2: Deceased victim and the gun used in the homicide is found nearby. The gun is traced to the last registered owner. The owner advises he believes that he legally sold the gun to an individual he could not positively identify. We have no other leads and we focused in on him. There was an ensuing background check, verification of his alibi (which was shaky) and an area canvass of neighbors and friends. It turned out to be a waste of time for us and an inconvenience and mild embarrassment for him.

    I would argue the point that it does have a purpose to extract this information. Both the buyer and seller should trade information without photocopying. I do this with the understanding that both may cover up his address and date of birth on the acceptable documents. Buyer is also advised ahead of time that if he does not look of age the date of birth must be exposed. Both the buyer and seller are protected.
     
  22. ATCDoktor

    ATCDoktor Member

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    2@low8, I appreciate you sharing your real world experience as an LEO along the lines of dealing with illegal use of lawfully purchased firearms.

    That stated, I submit that in scenario one, the DUI CHL, you would have arrested him whether or not he could have produced a ream of receipts from his glove box showing who he purchased the firearm from (whether or not they were real/legit).

    Burden of proof whether or not he was drunk or in possession of a stolen firearm is on the state. Looks like they proved their case.

    I will go on to share that if he was stupid enough to drink and drive it stands to reason he was too stupid to run the serial number of a recently purchased firearm through his local sheriffs office to determine whether or not it was stolen.

    Along the lines of sharing ID info, I would be willing to bet every gun I own that in the course of LEO duties you have seen more than one fake ID.

    And although you are trained to spot fake id's, we are not and the relative usefulness of requiring ID for a private sale is extremely low/useless based on this alone.

    With respect to the second scenario I can only share that that is the way it happens everyday in this country with regards to lawfully transferred firearms used in crimes.

    If it's lawfully transferred and used in a crime by the transferee it is your responsibility (the LEO) to follow up to every extent and determine whether or not the transferor was involved in said crime.

    Law Enforcement is going to investigate the transferor regardless of documentation it is their responsibility.
     
  23. Beentown

    Beentown Member

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    Private sales that need any info from me get skipped. I am a CHL and will show you such but that is far as that is going. Not signing a bill of sale either to make you "feel" better. Because that is all it really does.
     
  24. carbine85

    carbine85 Member

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    It most certainly is a straw purchase as soon as the 1st party tells you someone else is buying it or picking it up for them. The transaction must take place between the 2 parties. You bring in a 3rd party and it can easily become a straw purchase.
     
  25. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

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    Actually NO! It seems like it would be but the law is a bit more specific than that. HAS to be through a dealer.

    Here's our "sticky" thread on it: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=700331
     
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