Disliking on-line gun sales

[ID-shooting]

Are you an attorney or have you run this past an attorney for conformation?

ID theft is enough of a reason why I wouldn't risk letting anybody copy my info, I would sign a bill-of sale as long as you sign a paper that you can legally sell the gun.

Of that I would have no problem. I would gladly provide a purchaser with a bill-sale with my signature stating I verify to my knowledge that the gun is not stolen.

 

[2@low8]

ATCdoktor:

“…I submit that in scenario one, the DUI CHL, you would have arrested him whether or not he could have produced a ream of receipts from his glove box showing who he purchased the firearm from (whether or not they were real/legit).”

Absolutely correct. You need probable cause and not a mere suspicion to charge a person with possession of stolen property. A routine NCIC check of the firearm showed it to be a hit and that is the probable cause for the added charge. Where that “glove box” full of receipts comes in handy is in trying to prove the gun was purchased without his knowledge that it was stolen. (Next answer ties into this.)

“And although you are trained to spot fake id's, we are not and the relative usefulness of requiring ID for a private sale is extremely low/useless based on this alone.”

Partially correct. Yes, we had continuing formal training and, no, the relative usefulness it is not extremely low. Sure, you as well as I are going to miss spotting some fake Ids, but not every one is going to be fake. The possibility of some fakes shouldn’t stop you from getting that info because more often than not it can lead to another avenue for exoneration. . Analogy: The fact that condoms are not 100% effective against HIV is not a reason to forego their use. Condoms and gun ownership info can keep you from getting into something you can't get out of.

 

[GoWolfpack]

Try this exercise:
On your computer, type up a bill of sale. Fill out info for an imaginary buyer.
Fred Smith at 123 Imagination Hwy Nowheresville, KY.

Dream up a gun if you want. Mr Smith bought my Kia Sorrento 9mm Serial Number 0001 (very rare, vintage, classic).

Now sign it with your weak hand. Or deliberately alter your handwriting.

Congratulations! Now you've got "proof" that you sold your Kia, in case Mr. Smith uses it to murder your wife later this week. Terrible tragedy it was.

Every BOS you keep, every one you fill out, every one you encourage others to complete, carries all the legal weight of the one you just invented.


You, as a private citizen, do not have the authority to create a "paper trail" for a gun. The only person who can make a paper trail is an FFL dealer. Your personal records are not legal documents and will not shield you from prosecution or suspicion in the case that a gun you bought from a dealer and later resold is used in a crime. However, keeping your mouth shut and not making statements to the police without consulting a lawyer will do a great deal to shield you from prosecution, if not suspicion. I consider this to be of much more value than a bill of sale.

 

[itsa pain]

great post wolfpack. do you really think a criminal will go online to buy a gun. if you are a outlaw worth anything you can buy a gun very easily from your group or their contacts

 

[Jackal]

I sell privately quite a few guns every year and all i require is a name & birth date. There is no reason to collect more data than that for any reason.

 

[Derek Zeanah]

The second one is just personal preference. If you're going to require to COPY DOWN someone's identifying information, PLEASE say so up front. Don't drag some guy halfway across your state just to spring on him that you'll require having his identity on record.

If participating in a private sale, a seller can SEE my state ID, but they may not record it. Bill of sale is fine by me. I'll sign it, but I'm not putting all my personal ID info on it.

I agree with Sam. If I'm buying privately I'm happy to show you my ID and carry permit so you know I'm not a prohibited person, but I'm not all that keen on more records than that being kept. If records are being kept anyway, I'm pretty sure my local FFL won't pay my house a visit in the middle of the night. Some dude I don't know other than seeing his ad on the Internet? That's a whole 'nother issue.

 

[Onmilo]

On rare cases where I sell a gun face to face, I just write down the buyers Illinois FOID card number, DOB, and his/her name and make sure the card is valid when the transaction occurs.
I don't need or want any more information and yes, by Illinois state law we are required to keep a written record of the transaction for ten years

 

[CoRoMo]

Am I being too ... restrictive, or stringent?

Yes, apparently so.

Otherwise you would have sold the firearm. The stringent nature of your restrictions prevented either of the two deals from concluding. That's not to say that you won't eventually make a sale under your rules because there will certainly be someone along who doesn't mind the level of your terms.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

I too would have declined the first deal. You don't want to get messed up in something like that.

As far as the second, as has been said, it is your preference. I don't mind signing a BOS and I'll show you my CHCL but there will be no copying down of personal information. Period. If an issue is made of it, no hard feelings, but I'll pass on buying it.

 

[22-rimfire]

I think that many seem to make a big deal out of providing some personal information during a gun sale. What are you trying to hide?

I don't feel the need to copy their "information" down, but I have a pretty good memory and I can look at a drivers license and pretty much remember everything on it and record whatever information I choose after the buyer or seller walks away. I don't need to photograph it or do a bill of sale. But again, I really don't care where a buyer or seller lives as long as it is in my state.

I have had buyers react negatively if I ask if they are legally allowed to own a firearm. If they make a joke out of it and say something like "As far as I know...", that's good enough for me. But some feel it absolutely is none of my business. I believe that it actually IS my business. So no sale unless it is through a FFL dealer in that case.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

I think that many seem to make a big deal out of providing some personal information during a gun sale. What are you trying to hide?

You're right, I do make a big deal out of providing information to an individual I've never met before. Also, I have a problem with people going beyond what the law requires as far as firearm transfers. People say they are against gun control and new legislation, yet they go above and beyond what is already required. It seems hypocritical to me.

 

[oneounceload]

Quote:
Second hit was a guy who agreed on a price but was up front he would refuse to sign a bill of sale nor would he let me copy/record the info from his ID. I told him to buy someone else's gun.
I have purchased a wheel barrow full of guns over the course of my life in private sales with nothing exchanged but the money, a handshake and a smile.

I will go on to share that under no circumstances would I let a random person copy my info off an ID regardless of the circumstances.

I will follow that up with that I would not allow anyone in any private firearms transaction to know my address or know where I live and that I have guns in my home.

Agree with this, been doing it this way for 30 years

I think that many seem to make a big deal out of providing some personal information during a gun sale. What are you trying to hide?

More like you're trying to pry

 

[2@low8]

"Congratulations! Now you've got "proof" that you sold your Kia..."

No, you don't have "proof". You have a piece of paper that "alleges" a sale. After the paperwork is vetted and it verifies the transaction, then you have proof.

 

[BSA1]

I assume that those of you that are demanding the buyers photo I.D., address and d.o.b. are providing the buyer with your same exact information.

 

[45_auto]

Actual Case #2: Deceased victim and the gun used in the homicide is found nearby. The gun is traced to the last registered owner. The owner advises he believes that he legally sold the gun to an individual he could not positively identify. We have no other leads and we focused in on him. There was an ensuing background check, verification of his alibi (which was shaky) and an area canvass of neighbors and friends. It turned out to be a waste of time for us and an inconvenience and mild embarrassment for him.

Just think how bad it would have gone for him if he had a bill of sale with the buyer's name on it and the buyer denied ever seeing him or the gun.

How do you prove a bill of sale for a gun is real if you only have a name on it with no other verification of the buyer (address, driver license number, date of birth, etc)?

 

[JSH1]

People say they are against gun control and new legislation, yet they go above and beyond what is already required. It seems hypocritical to me.

I support universal background checks so no hypocrisy on my part.

My name, address, and phone number is listed in the phone book. No one can steal my identity with only that information.

My bill of sale has the same information for buyers and seller and both get a signed copy.

 

[22-rimfire]

I don't support "universal background checks", but I still think it prudent that you know to whom you are selling. Buying... I think that is up to the seller from my point of view.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

I support universal background checks so no hypocrisy on my part.

You're right, that does do away with my hypocrisy assumption for you. However, you are the in the minority here, so it would apply to most.

Wow. I didn't figure there was anyone in Bama who would support such legislation. Of course that would explain why you still have a landline phone and a phonebook. lol
Fairhope boy myself. ROLL TIDE!

 

[22-rimfire]

If there was a convenient and inexpensive way to have a NICs check done on a buyer I would use it on a case by case basis. I am very liability conscious. It happens as you age a bit or after you get sued.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

If there was a convenient and inexpensive way to have a NICs check done on a buyer I would use it on a case by case basis.

I expect you wouldn't use it as often as you think. You may attempt to, but I would imagine that the VAST majority of people would tell you to get bent and leave.
However, even though I disagree with you, you certainly have the right to require whatever you choose when you're selling your property. Just be ready to have a lot of people like the OP talked about that refuses.

 

[JSH1]

Wow. I didn't figure there was anyone in Bama who would support such legislation. Of course that would explain why you still have a landline phone and a phonebook.

Not by choice. I had been happily landline free since 2001 but found out when I applied for my business license that Alabama still requires a landline. They also still deliver phone books door to door. Mine goes straight into the recycling bin.

 

[2@low8]

“Just think how bad it would have gone for him if he had a bill of sale with the buyer's name on it and the buyer denied ever seeing him or the gun.”

If there was such a denial (how did the police find this guy -- apparently there was enough info from the sale to locate him) the next step of the vetting process is to ascertain why there is no agreement. Was there complicity or another unrelated criminal act on the part of the seller -- the investigation goes on.

Let’s not “what if” this to death. I never said this method was perfect. Let me remind you that the reason we solved cases is due to the fact that criminals make mistakes. Criminals inadvertently providing info that may come back to haunt them is a major one. Instead you might want to think how good it would have gone for him that he did have this info.

 

[2@low8]

“How do you prove a bill of sale for a gun is real if you only have a name on it with no other verification of the buyer (address, driver license number, date of birth, etc)?”

“No officer, I don’t have his address, driver’s license number or his date of birth, but John J. Jones did show me his Florida driver’s license and I noted that the picture was a likeness of him”

The next step is to bring up all the drivers’ licenses with that name and have the buyer identify the picture he saw and that is what would lead the investigation to that individual.

Let me save you some trouble here. “What if it was a fake license?” “What if the buyer can no longer remember the sellers face?” The short answer is, “Probably screwed.” Let me repeat, I never said that this method was perfect, but there is always a good possibility there may be some evidentiary value (maybe a traceable fingerprint on a BOS) in it and some is always better than none.

I no way am I advocating that you follow my lead. If you have complied with Federal and State laws regarding the sale or purchase of a firearm then you are in your right to do what you please. There are millions of firearms out there and the buyers and sellers are free to propose their terms.

 

[buck460XVR]

It's your gun and regardless of what anybody says, you can sell it anyway you want. If a buyer gives you grief so be it. If you have your terms, and have a legitimate reason for them, don't be pressured into changing your mind. That said, if your terms are unreasonable, you may have a hard time selling the firearm or getting the price you want. The few used guns I have bought FTF from folks I did not know personally came with a BOS with their name, address and signature on it as verified by their DL.(altho it was not copied) They got the same info from me. Made us both comfortable with the sale. No identity theft option there. One sale I backed outta cause the seller wanted no paper trail. Wasn't that nice of gun or that good of price.

 

[22-rimfire]

I expect you wouldn't use it as often as you think. You may attempt to, but I would imagine that the VAST majority of people would tell you to get bent and leave.

Hence the case by case judgement on sales. If someone calls me, I already know their name in most cases. If someone choose "to leave", I have my gun and they have their money. No problem. That's why I said earlier I would probably just go through a FFL dealer and be done with it; they can pay dealer price. The dealer wins and the buyer looses all because they would not provide some information.... doesn't make a lot of sense to me when I wouldn't use the information for anything other than to document to whom I sold a firearm to.

Or you sell via the online auctions and you always know the name and address of your buyer.