I think people who don't carry a gun are in a "dream world"
I would call it a nightmare where I'm slowly losing my rights
Do Concealed Carry permit holders really live in a dream world?
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CapnMac
Member
The "dream world" conclusion is easy to reach, even easy to demonstrate--but only by setting it up with a "condition white" CHL surrounded by "condition yellow" participants, and a "condition red" actor.
I've heard these things debated before in the anti-CCW debates. It's a straw-man though. Consider the mental difficulty in taking the steps of going out armed and also being in condition white. It's not really possible. If a person tried (trained or not), the least that would happen is that they'd print, and risk their privilege to carry. Even that first kid is fidgeting, he even has to blurt to the person next to him that he's armed, he's not all the way to condition white.
Now, that does not mean that, with experience and practice, that there are not CHL out there who are comfortable enough to stay in an alert zone that looks to be others as white, but, is really yellow.
When the strawman is tipped up about "You'd never out draw a criminal with his gun out" my rejoinder is that I should not have wandered into an ambush situation totally unawares, either. An unaware person will violate the law, the carry rules, whatever. Since we have this special privilege, and can lose it for tiny infractions, we have to be more aware of what we are doing.
I just wish we could do something about those openly carrying tools a hundred times more deadly than firearms--but I could be biased having seen how many people around Austin mount their GPS at the 12 o'clock position relative to the steering wheel, and high enough to be able to text with the phone not blocking the GPS screen.
I've heard these things debated before in the anti-CCW debates. It's a straw-man though. Consider the mental difficulty in taking the steps of going out armed and also being in condition white. It's not really possible. If a person tried (trained or not), the least that would happen is that they'd print, and risk their privilege to carry. Even that first kid is fidgeting, he even has to blurt to the person next to him that he's armed, he's not all the way to condition white.
Now, that does not mean that, with experience and practice, that there are not CHL out there who are comfortable enough to stay in an alert zone that looks to be others as white, but, is really yellow.
When the strawman is tipped up about "You'd never out draw a criminal with his gun out" my rejoinder is that I should not have wandered into an ambush situation totally unawares, either. An unaware person will violate the law, the carry rules, whatever. Since we have this special privilege, and can lose it for tiny infractions, we have to be more aware of what we are doing.
I just wish we could do something about those openly carrying tools a hundred times more deadly than firearms--but I could be biased having seen how many people around Austin mount their GPS at the 12 o'clock position relative to the steering wheel, and high enough to be able to text with the phone not blocking the GPS screen.
armsmaster270
Member
Here is the last guy that tried me on
My Qual target first 12 rounds from the hip at 7 1/2 yards no misses.
My Qual target first 12 rounds from the hip at 7 1/2 yards no misses.
I think this is sobering and excellent. I don't think it's biased, it's a report - it was done objectively. It focused on an encounter with an armed BG - one type, the best to be able to do with controls that are safe. The points though are relevant to other situations as well, even if those would likely include some successes for the students.
The conclusions can be what you want: it means to me, don't pull out a gun unless there is no alternative - because it is not a sure thing in the least. It also means, practice frequently. Since there are cases where CCWs do save themselves, I'm not going to stop Carrying when I do Carry - which is under certain conditions. But it reinforces the dictum:
if you can do anything else to survive, do it.
I think it's a very good wake-up.
I've read the responses on the thread - and even here see some examples of "Dream"-stuff.
At best, even if the test would be better "if" ......... and then you can name "ifs", it's way, way below a certain help to have a gun in life. Might give an edge in certain cases, BUT only if you do nothing out of a false sense of security - like choose to react forcibly when you don't have to. The students in the film all did the opposite. None fled, moved away under cover to the side and lay still to take themselves out of it. They all reacted with their weapons - or for a moment ducked down in dead center partially visible before standing and shooting. Because they had a gun, they readied for a shot, and as they did pulled the attention of the shooter to them at the center of the row.
Because they had a gun, their initial mistake was assuming they should use it.
And THAT'S likely the over-all danger of CCW - defending yourself with a gun when you don't have to.
The conclusions can be what you want: it means to me, don't pull out a gun unless there is no alternative - because it is not a sure thing in the least. It also means, practice frequently. Since there are cases where CCWs do save themselves, I'm not going to stop Carrying when I do Carry - which is under certain conditions. But it reinforces the dictum:
if you can do anything else to survive, do it.
I think it's a very good wake-up.
I've read the responses on the thread - and even here see some examples of "Dream"-stuff.
At best, even if the test would be better "if" ......... and then you can name "ifs", it's way, way below a certain help to have a gun in life. Might give an edge in certain cases, BUT only if you do nothing out of a false sense of security - like choose to react forcibly when you don't have to. The students in the film all did the opposite. None fled, moved away under cover to the side and lay still to take themselves out of it. They all reacted with their weapons - or for a moment ducked down in dead center partially visible before standing and shooting. Because they had a gun, they readied for a shot, and as they did pulled the attention of the shooter to them at the center of the row.
Because they had a gun, their initial mistake was assuming they should use it.
And THAT'S likely the over-all danger of CCW - defending yourself with a gun when you don't have to.
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MedWheeler
Member
GVF, keep in mind the actual scenario that was supposedly being studied here. This was (supposedly) a mass-shooting simulation. In real-life mass-shootings, the shooter is bent on killing everyone he comes across. There is no other motive, such as robbery, and no demands made by the shooter that, if complied with, might result in the sparing of any individual. True, if one is never discovered by the shooter (and isn't hit by stray fire), one may very well survive. however, I stand by my assertion that, when cornered with such an adversary, any defensive fire is worth the risk involved. Running when already discovered will just get you shot in the back. Also, since this was an exercise in the students' firearms response, they were instructed to react the way they did. Flight or simply trying to find cover and hide was not an option they were allowed to exercise.
Even the DHS agrees that, when escape is not possible, resistance by any means available is appropriate.
http://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/active_shooter_booklet.pdf
Even the DHS agrees that, when escape is not possible, resistance by any means available is appropriate.
http://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/active_shooter_booklet.pdf
I must have missed it tooMedWheeler said:
While that was the point of the experiment, the students were not aware of it.
They were placing in a pre-action briefing situation and were ask to put on all their gear to acclimate and check for problems. The point was for them to be put at ease...not expecting action...to simulate a natural setting.
The study was describe accurately for the students and that is why they were allowed familiarization time with their gear. But they were given no specific instructions of how to react...certainly not at the point where the test began
JR47
Member
In the initial shoot-out, the armed student had the gun placed on him, he didn't do it himself.(1:41 of video one).
The most trained person in the test had "over 100 hours of experience". I wonder what qualifies as experience to ABC? Is that 100 hours of actual shooting, or 100 hours of being at a range, shooting with friends. Did that also include rifle, or trap and skeet with shotguns? Too many unexplained variables.
Placing the armed student in the center, every time, is also a poor standard. The person had restricted movement, and was also in the same place for every encounter. The students changed, but the shooter was the same.
I don't know of a single person locally who believes that just having a gun is the end-all and be-all of self-defense. I would also hazard a guess that anyone who actually takes the time to obtain a CCW is cognizant of the fact that there is no guarantee that the mere possession of a gun makes them invulnerable.
The other side of this is that most deranged shooters aren't trained professionals, either. They will be as awkward as anyone else.
The most trained person in the test had "over 100 hours of experience". I wonder what qualifies as experience to ABC? Is that 100 hours of actual shooting, or 100 hours of being at a range, shooting with friends. Did that also include rifle, or trap and skeet with shotguns? Too many unexplained variables.
Placing the armed student in the center, every time, is also a poor standard. The person had restricted movement, and was also in the same place for every encounter. The students changed, but the shooter was the same.
I don't know of a single person locally who believes that just having a gun is the end-all and be-all of self-defense. I would also hazard a guess that anyone who actually takes the time to obtain a CCW is cognizant of the fact that there is no guarantee that the mere possession of a gun makes them invulnerable.
The other side of this is that most deranged shooters aren't trained professionals, either. They will be as awkward as anyone else.
Guess I'm used to seeing a lot of Rambo posts on another forum I used to be on. No matter what the situation, always this talk about lightning-fast draws and superb hand-fighting capabilities, Ninja moves - that reeked of over-confidence - challenge anything, always come out on top, never back down.
Too much............
Too much............
00__LUGER__00
Member
I think ED4032 (post 53) makes a great point.
Also, I would like to point out that the scenario in the video, being unreal, is somewhat of a fantasy in itself.
What would be valid would be some actual (good luck finding those), unbiased (not likely), statistics regarding
this type of scenario. Wait, those don't likely exist- because propaganda like this have people convinced of what
the outcome would be already.
Also, I would like to point out that the scenario in the video, being unreal, is somewhat of a fantasy in itself.
What would be valid would be some actual (good luck finding those), unbiased (not likely), statistics regarding
this type of scenario. Wait, those don't likely exist- because propaganda like this have people convinced of what
the outcome would be already.
mljdeckard
Member
I agreed with what someone else posted earlier, but I also wanted to emphasize that in this exercise, the 'bad guy' KNEW there was going to be someone with a gun in the room. In the real world, the shooter would not know this, or who it was. He went in LOOKING for the defender. A real live shooter would just go in shooting, hoping to take as many out as he could before the police showed up.
Real live shooters seldom have extensive or any real training. They are usually imitating what they believe to be fighting technique they have seen in movies. They would have at least as much trouble as a defender in drawing and transitioning weapons, etc. If he were surprised by an armed defender who was smart enough to wait until he had a good opportunity to draw, he would be entirely vulnerable.
Real live shooters seldom have extensive or any real training. They are usually imitating what they believe to be fighting technique they have seen in movies. They would have at least as much trouble as a defender in drawing and transitioning weapons, etc. If he were surprised by an armed defender who was smart enough to wait until he had a good opportunity to draw, he would be entirely vulnerable.
My internet gadgets no longer play videos well, and I did not read all of the posts in this thread, so the following is based on the question raised in the OP's title.
Yes, many folks, not just carry permit folks, live in a world of their perceived realities, rather than what reality actually is, or what reality will be. i read and hear this in the words they use to describe what they believe their event/attacker will be like. I read and hear this in the way they describe their carry methods, and their weapons.
Reality is what the attacker has planned, if if the intended victim is not prepared for that reality, things will likely go horribly wrong for the defender.
Even experienced big-city police officers, who know good and well what reality can be, can be complacent, and choose to be unprepared. For every local account of an off-the-clock LEO rising to the occasion when attacked, there are many who were successfully victimized, because they chose, in advance, to
be victims.
Yes, many folks, not just carry permit folks, live in a world of their perceived realities, rather than what reality actually is, or what reality will be. i read and hear this in the words they use to describe what they believe their event/attacker will be like. I read and hear this in the way they describe their carry methods, and their weapons.
Reality is what the attacker has planned, if if the intended victim is not prepared for that reality, things will likely go horribly wrong for the defender.
Even experienced big-city police officers, who know good and well what reality can be, can be complacent, and choose to be unprepared. For every local account of an off-the-clock LEO rising to the occasion when attacked, there are many who were successfully victimized, because they chose, in advance, to
be victims.
o Unforgiven o
Member
Well, there were some very helpful and objective posts and others that could not see past the apparent flaws.
After reading all of them, I think what we can take away from this is;
After reading all of them, I think what we can take away from this is;
- Train as often as possible.
- Make sure your carry system works for you, and practice with it.
- Do not become complacent.
NMGonzo
Member
Stepdad was stunned when I told him that empiric data demonstrated that people may survive multiple handgun projectile wounds and still fight.
He never ever shoots or practices, so I told him to keep the model 7 (i think it is) and sell the high power; it is not going to do him any good if he is not proficient.
He never ever shoots or practices, so I told him to keep the model 7 (i think it is) and sell the high power; it is not going to do him any good if he is not proficient.
Deltaboy1984
Member
The Videos are anti gun nonsense.
I thought it was interesting and not realistic that then shooters always focused on the one with the gun. Also the question is who would be better prepared, someone with a gun o someone without. What if 3 people had guns in that room and the gunman didn't know where any of them where. Drawing from a holster and putting two on the target is something every CHL holder should practice. But I contend that someone that takes a while to draw their weapon has a better chance than someone without one at all.
mokin
Member
Get trained and practice!
I think they made a great case for those with concealed carry permits to get further training and practice! As was stated before "some food for thought". I had enough after about half way through the first video, sometime after the firearms instructor stated that it takes practice to draw your weapon. I've met a lot of folks who carry, and they come in many stripes. Some practice and get training others don't. Some consider what ever they have picked up including airsoft addiquit. But, I thought that given the scenario, they did about as well as they could. Perhaps they could have run the shooter through several lecture halls without him knowing which one contained an armed student. Or, as everybody was in protective equipment and the shooter could not see anybody's face, have a fellow instructor in the classroom. Anyway....
I'm going to unload my pistol and practice drawing for a few minutes while I have some time.
I think they made a great case for those with concealed carry permits to get further training and practice! As was stated before "some food for thought". I had enough after about half way through the first video, sometime after the firearms instructor stated that it takes practice to draw your weapon. I've met a lot of folks who carry, and they come in many stripes. Some practice and get training others don't. Some consider what ever they have picked up including airsoft addiquit. But, I thought that given the scenario, they did about as well as they could. Perhaps they could have run the shooter through several lecture halls without him knowing which one contained an armed student. Or, as everybody was in protective equipment and the shooter could not see anybody's face, have a fellow instructor in the classroom. Anyway....
I'm going to unload my pistol and practice drawing for a few minutes while I have some time.
Cop Bob
Member
I have seen it over and over again, with experienced officers and shooter, the old drill that shows that a man with a knife can close a 21 ft. gap, and cut you before you can react,access your weapon and fire....
What chance does the inexperienced and untrained have... A good one if he/she is smart..
When asked: How do you get to Carnegie Hall? Henny Youngman's answer: "Practice my boy, Practice!"
All this does is point out the need to drill. No matter how good you are, you can still get jazzed and miss... there is no substitute for practice. Real world, practical drills... Not just range time, but Proper Practice makes Perfect..... In fact live ammo need not be used..... at least ALL the time... Snap caps, airsoft, what ever....
Metal awareness drills where ever you go, how would, where would, MENTAL what ifs...
You look at local Police SWAT Teams... there primary job is to train.. for every hour they spend on a live scene, they have spent 100 running drills... and they still get hurt..
ST-6 that took out Bin Laden, each member had trained for two years to get to the teams, then real world and training and actions with other teams for at least another 5 years. Then they trained on a mock up of the Bin Laden compound for another month... and still had bad things happen (helo went down)
The more you Sweat in Training, the less you bleed in combat....
You get the idea,, it is NEVER ENOUGH... and soo few of us do it at all... buy some ammo, go to the range to keep up the license, and call it good....
These type videos point out that, #1, keep your radars up and running, live with your head on a swivel... Situational awareness is everything...
If it looks like it is going to go bad.. the fastest draw I have ever seen, is to already have it in your hand...
Failing in that, a little luck and a good interpersonal relationship with the God of your choice is a good thing...
80% + of combat is mental... it is in the mindset....
If you think you can win,,,, You are right...
If you think you will loose... You are right....
Or we could all stay home behind the doors and hope the zombies don't come... (sorry, had to ref back to the "Dream World"....
What chance does the inexperienced and untrained have... A good one if he/she is smart..
When asked: How do you get to Carnegie Hall? Henny Youngman's answer: "Practice my boy, Practice!"
All this does is point out the need to drill. No matter how good you are, you can still get jazzed and miss... there is no substitute for practice. Real world, practical drills... Not just range time, but Proper Practice makes Perfect..... In fact live ammo need not be used..... at least ALL the time... Snap caps, airsoft, what ever....
Metal awareness drills where ever you go, how would, where would, MENTAL what ifs...
You look at local Police SWAT Teams... there primary job is to train.. for every hour they spend on a live scene, they have spent 100 running drills... and they still get hurt..
ST-6 that took out Bin Laden, each member had trained for two years to get to the teams, then real world and training and actions with other teams for at least another 5 years. Then they trained on a mock up of the Bin Laden compound for another month... and still had bad things happen (helo went down)
The more you Sweat in Training, the less you bleed in combat....
You get the idea,, it is NEVER ENOUGH... and soo few of us do it at all... buy some ammo, go to the range to keep up the license, and call it good....
These type videos point out that, #1, keep your radars up and running, live with your head on a swivel... Situational awareness is everything...
If it looks like it is going to go bad.. the fastest draw I have ever seen, is to already have it in your hand...
Failing in that, a little luck and a good interpersonal relationship with the God of your choice is a good thing...
80% + of combat is mental... it is in the mindset....
If you think you can win,,,, You are right...
If you think you will loose... You are right....
Or we could all stay home behind the doors and hope the zombies don't come... (sorry, had to ref back to the "Dream World"....
o Unforgiven o
Member
Cop Bob, that is hands down the best answer yet. Thanks.
Yes, the fact that stands out most in this video is that the defender is really under the gun, so to speak, as the BG comes bursting in with gun in hand and starts shooting. The odds of you standing there trying to draw, fire and stop this threat are totally against you. All of these students thought that because they had a gun, they had to draw and fire and that is the reason they lost the gunfight. I have always said that the mental awareness along with the quick decision of what to do is much more important than just firing your weapon. I also believe that this experiment was bogus based upon the fact that these students had a pre conceived notion that because they had a gun, they had to use it and that is not always the case in a real life scenario.
ABC's position from this video in one sentence: "If someone tries to kill you, its no guarantee that you'll be able to stop them, so you shouldn't try." I miss anything? Yes people likely mentally overestimate their abilities most of the time, how is that meant to be an argument against concealed carry?
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
Not accurate. The bad guy didn't know there was going to be someone in the room with a gun. The bad guy knew where that person was sitting each and every time!! I especially liked how the positioning of the target student resulted in everyone running AWAY from the target and the target had the greatest distance to get to actual safety.
I found the execution of Jason to be interesting, the one where there was the mole shooter who was another student who shot Jason because Jason had "tunnel vision." I have seen this test before. Trained cops fail it virtually every time as well, even when they know it is going to happen. The bottom line is that no shooter can reasonably expect to deal with two shooters (one known and one unknown) who are in different locations and who have the skills to make the shot and who have the jump on the target. It is a NO-win situation for the student.
Usually, this is the case, but in numerous armed robberies, it would not be the case. There are several where the robbers have done their homework and have targets in mind to remove from the situation and go in with the goal of dealing with the targets first, then grabbing the money.
True, but when they do have any sort of training or have very good training, they really ruin the day for a lot of people. However, most of us will end up going against Joe Crackhead if we ever go up against anybody.
And yet what they have seen on TV often works to the detriment of the good citizens and often to law enforcement.
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