Do concealed guns belong in stadiums?

[Mainsail]

If you can't/don't take it with you into the stadium with you, where are you going to leave it, in your car? So the punk kid stealing CDs gets a gun too? Dumb dumb dumb. What about the hike in from the parking lot, and the long walk back after the game?

It's not just your final destination you need to think about.

 

[Lawdawg45]

"It's not the CCW packers that should alarm anyone. In fact they are a safety mechanism as there are never enough cops around."

Well said Deaf Smith, and I think the old saying is "I carry a weapon because a Cop is too heavy"

LD

 

[msparks]

I go to a stadium about once year or so. I'm in the Guard Band and "have to" play at the Vets day game. I think every single person should be armed at the stadium. What a place it is, bunch of nuts painted up watching people run up and down a field. That can't be right.

The good thing is that we are down on the field level and don't have to mix with them.

The only problem I see being at a stadium is that if you did have to defend yourself getting a clear shot would be difficult.

 

[ATLDave]

I think it's a harder question than some are giving credit for. Yes, I would like to be able to carry to, at, and from the stadium. However, given the intensity of emotions that are rampant at stadia (particularly with football), I'm glad that a lot of the people in the dome or bowl with me don't have a firearm. I've seen cops break up fights between grown men in stadiums - men who had the financial wherewithall to pay for expensive tickets, and who probably are fairly law abiding in other parts of their lives.

As for criminals not caring about the rules against carrying, that's only partially true, and only partially relevant. Many a fan has walked into a stadium intending to abide by every rule. After a couple of drinks, some disappointing play on the field, and one or more obnoxious fans of the other team being too close to him, however, some percentage of those previously well-intentioned citizens get so angry that they make some really terrible decisions and become hyper-confrontational, or even violent. The inflamation of those passions and aggressions is, after all, part of the appeal of many sports, including football. Now, those fans, in the calm before the game, certainly do care about rules; it's only once they are inebriated and furious that they slip the bonds of society's rules. So, for them, the old saw about criminals not caring about the rules doesn't hold true, or at least isn't informative - they aren't criminals at the time they decide whether to pack.

And, many stadiums have instituted metal detectors and/or other searches; in those cases, the rules are not dependent upon the forebearance of criminals.

I'll put it this way. I probably would not go, at least with my daughter and wife, to a football game where CC was allowed, even if I were carrying. I'm not so worried, after all, about some sort of mugging while standing in line for hot dogs, but about some drunken idiot deciding to shoot at/near/around somebody wearing the wrong jersey, and where those rounds might go. I probably would go to a baseball game, though, where CC was allowed; I just don't see the same level of bloodlust and fan fury there.

All in all, I think it's a business-owner's decision to make. If a football stadium owner wants to say that patrons must cluck like a chicken to gain admitance, I think he/she has that right; I just will choose not to go.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I think it's a harder question than some are giving credit for. Yes, I would like to be able to carry to, at, and from the stadium. However, given the intensity of emotions that are rampant at stadia (particularly with football), I'm glad that a lot of the people in the dome or bowl with me don't have a firearm. I've seen cops break up fights between grown men in stadiums - men who had the financial wherewithall to pay for expensive tickets, and who probably are fairly law abiding in other parts of their lives.

I would like to be able to carry while driving. However, given the intensity of emotions that are rampant when people are trying to find parking spaces (particularly in downtown), I'm glad that a lot of the people who drive don't have a firearm. I've seen cops interfere fights between grown men in road rage cases - men who had the financial wherewithall to pay for expensive cars, and who probably are fairly law abiding in other parts of their lives.

No one should carry a gun!! Not nowhere, not no how, not no time!!

[/Sarcasm]

 

[valnar]

Would you be okay with other people carrying in stadiums who might be drinking? Heavily?

Hey, just trying to play devil's advocate.

 

[Brett Byers AKA Slow]

I wouldn't buy an NFL ticket! I wouldn't be surprised if they don't start groping crotches and body scanning before entry.

 

[ATLDave]

Vern, I'm not saying that stadia are the only places where otherwise law-abiding people behave badly. But they seem to behave badly there at a much higher rate than at other places. Have I seen true road rage? (Honking isn't road rage, neither is the finger.) A couple of times. And I live in a place known for difficult traffic. Have I seen stadium violence? A handful of times. I reckon I've spent more a thousand times more time in traffic than in a stadium, and I've still seen more impulse/rage in sporting arenas. That tells me that environment is an explosive one - heck, it's designed to be, and the owners do everything to whip up that emotion.

Setting that aside, your analogy is otherwise logically flawed. Our society does not control who goes onto the roads - they are public. Moreover, we cannot, in any practical sense, control what people take with them on the roads. We do control who goes into a stadium, and can, to some extent, control what they take with them. Thus, we can fairly safely rely on stadium security to prevent harm, not just investigate it after the fact; I think we all agree the same cannot be said about the ability of the police to protect us in advance on the public thoroughfares. Until we have metal detectors at the ends of people's driveways (and, I devoutly hope, we never will), there's just no comparison.

There are also smaller distinctions, such as the level of crowding on a public road versus an athletic venue; a personalized, armed confrontation on a public road poses some risk to third parties. A personalized, armed confrontation in a stadium virtually guarantees injury or death to third parties.

As I said in my initial post, I don't think it's an easy question, on one side or the other. I generally think that, in this society as is, we are better off being able to carry. But I think a football (or hockey) game may be an instance where the risks outweigh the benefits.

 

[Mike1234567]

Not stadium related but...

Road Rage + Gun = Self Defense (This Time)

 

[oneounceload]

Do you think the terrorist will stay out of stadiums?

You think hate filled ex-spouses will stay out of stadiums?

Or robbers? Molesters? Insane killers? Gangs?

How many terrorist attacks on stadiums have there been?

How many angry ex-spouses have attacked their ex at a stadium?

How many robbers, molesters, and gangs have attacked folks at stadiums?

Please cite your sources. Thanks

 

[ATLDave]

Actually, 1oz, I think the terrorist point falls mostly on the side of keeping guns out of stadia. A small number of terrorists armed with service-caliber handguns could each kill several victims before even a well-armed (but surprised) citizen could stop them; final score, terrorists 12, good guys 4? Focusing again on the controlled nature of stadium admission, wouldn't it be better to use metal detectors and keep all guns out, except for LEOs?

As for the other points you raise, I think I agree. A stadium would certainly be a bizzarre place for an individual to try to seek out a confrontation with an ex-spouse, what with the tens of thousands of witnesses, hundreds of LEO's, and virtually certain apprehension and conviction.

 

[Skribs]

I think ATLDave said it better than I did. At Applebees, you don't have the raging emotions of being cramped in close quarters with a lot of strangers, and its not the same as being at the game (even if you're watching it). I've never seen a fight break out at Applebees.

Also, in the stadium example, how successful civilian guns will be at stopping a terrorist attack will be based on quantity and luck. If you're on the other side of the stadium, you're out of range with a handgun. Even then, I think 4 terrorists could take down a lot more than 12 people before they're brought down, even if they are close to a CCW. An overpenetrating carbine would be devastating.

 

[Sam1911]

Actually, 1oz, I think the terrorist point falls mostly on the side of keeping guns out of stadia. A small number of terrorists armed with service-caliber handguns could each kill several victims before even a well-armed (but surprised) citizen could stop them; final score, terrorists 12, good guys 4?

I think you made a gross miscalculation. It seems you're arguing that it somehow is BETTER if only the terrorists have guns because the good guys would react slowly. Instead of Terrorists 12, Good Guys 4, consider this:

Final score -- good guys: 4; terrorists: as many as they have ammunition to kill.

Focusing again on the controlled nature of stadium admission, wouldn't it be better to use metal detectors and keep all guns out, except for LEOs?

Doesn't seem to be working all that well for TSA. And we all know what a wonderful thing it is to go through airport security these days. You want to put 50,000 (or 110,000 at a big college game) football fans through taking off their shoes and runnng their belongings through the scanners?

As for the other points you raise, I think I agree. A stadium would certainly be a bizzarre place for an individual to try to seek out a confrontation with an ex-spouse, what with the tens of thousands of witnesses, hundreds of LEO's, and virtually certain apprehension and conviction.

Seems like a fair number of confrontational violent actors don't particularly care about arrest, conviction, and/or living through the altercation. Some have no problem choosing a public venue. Heck, we've seen some go TO THE COURTHOUSE to attack someone.

From a much more practical and likely standpoint than defense in the stadium seats, most stadiums I've attended or worked near were not in beautiful, peaceful, secure areas of town. I'd be much more happy to take the 1/2 mile walk through the slums, alleys, and decayed industrial sections of town to get from my parking spot to the game with a sidearm on my hip.

 

[Guillermo]

The specific scenario matters not at all.

Doesn't matter what or who the threat is. Be it terrorists, drunken assmaggots, aggressive pigeons or flying monkeys, you should be able to protect yourself...period.



(BTW, the flying monkey is the ultimate game animal)

 

[ATLDave]

Sam1911, your terrorism argument seems to depend on terrorists being able to get guns inside. But there are already a lot of athletic arenas that use metal detectors (often in wand form) to screen people. This isn't theoretical - it's already happening, and it seems to work reasonably well.

The measures are not, and need not be, as intrusive as the TSA measures. Those are heightened for all sorts of reasons, including (IMO) the need for security theater, but keeping even small quantities of explosives out is the big one - that's why you must go through unshod, have liquids in a ziploc bag, etc. Airplanes are pressure vesels, and are therefore thought to be very sensitive to explosives. Even if the explosive shock wave itself only kills the bomber and his seatrow-mate, the risks of explosive decompression or structural damage to the airplane are thought to put the lives of everyone aboard in serious jeopardy. Those concerns aren't present in a stadium.

Nor does the process need to be as cumbersome. Lots of the delay is associated with baggage. Many stadiums have long since barred bags beyond purses - not out of safety concerns, but to make sure that customers are captive to their exorbitantly-priced concessions! If nobody is taking off shoes, and nobody is pulling a laptop out of their briefcase, and nobody is wrestling with how to juggle their ticket, rollaboard, and ziploc of deoderant and toothpaste, security lines move really quickly. So, to return to our scoreboard analysis, using metal detectors has so far resulted in a box score of Staidum Terrorists 0, Good guys haven't need to take the field yet.

As for determined asailants not caring about where they attack, let me suggest that what is possible and what are likely are two different things. Is it possible that someone will choose to stalk someone into a stadium (including paying whatever ridiculous price it costs to get past the turnstiles)? Sure. Is it likely? Not terribly.

On the other hand, is it likely that, if there are 10,000 armed, inebriated fans in 80 big-time-college and pro football stadium every week, it won't take very long for some guy whose team is getting blown out and is being taunted by some <deleted> wearing the other team's jersey to pull out a gun and even pull the trigger? I think it's pretty likely. And the consequences could be catastrophic. After he fires a shot, and all the good samaritans nearby draw down on him, you've now got a wave of gunfire, and neither LEOs nor other armed spectators have any idea who is the wolf and who is the sheepdog. Meanwhile, other spectators are packed closely to every possible target (legitimate and otherwise), and the trampling begins. You could easily lose dozens, or even hundreds just because one <deleted> got wasted and pulled a gun.

To be clear, I'm for letting law abiding citizens carry in their daily lives. But I'm also for letting business and property owners make a reasoned determination that their particular property, and events they hold on them, are exceptional.

 

[SnowBlaZeR2]

How many terrorist attacks on stadiums have there been?

How many angry ex-spouses have attacked their ex at a stadium?

How many robbers, molesters, and gangs have attacked folks at stadiums?

Please cite your sources. Thanks

How many people have attacked you anywhere? Probably none. I can tell you how many people have attacked me, at least on the streets of the US. Not one. Yet I still carry every day. Go figure.

 

[Sam1911]

Sam1911, your terrorism argument seems to depend on terrorists being able to get guns inside. But there are already a lot of athletic arenas that use metal detectors (often in wand form) to screen people. This isn't theoretical - it's already happening, and it seems to work reasonably well.

And yet TSA, with all their real AND "theatrical" security measures -- which you've admitted are much greater than any likely to be installed in a stadium -- don't keep prohibited items off planes universally.

So, to return to our scoreboard analysis, using metal detectors has so far resulted in a box score of Staidum Terrorists 0

I'm not willing to concede that metal detectors have much if anything to do with the lack of terrorist attacks in stadiums (so far). The causality is implied but not necessarily real. You're putting a lot of faith is systems which don't work very well.

Is it possible that someone will choose to stalk someone into a stadium (including paying whatever ridiculous price it costs to get past the turnstiles)? Sure. Is it likely? Not terribly.

How in the world do you know that? We've seen much stranger things happen from the deranged and homicidal.

But this really avoids my much bigger question -- not what happens in the seats (which, like the Giffords shooting, probably is best handled with great restraint on the part of the armed responder), but what happens between the car and the game, and in the alley afterward.

Judging that surely some inebriate will pull a gun and a blood-bath will ensue is the sort of rhetoric used by all the organizations that oppose concealed carry. (Or carry in bars, banks, hospitals, or whatever other "special class" venue.) And yet, it just doesn't happen. Somehow we've proved to be better than that.

---

(As an aside, please mind the language. Abbreviated expletives still are a no-no. Thanks.)

 

[Guillermo]

I think it's pretty likely.

Why would you think that?

Sports bars (all bars) in Virginia had LESS gun violence when they started allowing concealed carry.

http://townhall.com/tipsheet/elisabethmeinecke/2011/08/15/gun_crimes_in_va_bars_dropped_when_concealed_carry_allowed

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

I'm sure you guys saw the recent story about a guy smuggling a stun gun (and using it) into the NY Jets game this past weekend.

Actually, no. But I assume he carried it in there for some nefarious purpose. No mere prohibition or silly sign, short of stopping and searching everyone entering the stadium, is going to stop people like this.

 

[Psa1m144]

We should definitely be allowed to conceal carry in a stadium and everywhere else we go. I carry all day every day, baseball games, movie theaters, restaurants, malls, public events and everywhere else I go. Washington allows us to conceal carry in most places which I do appreciate (but gun laws could always be better!)

 

[KenW.]

A concealed firearm belong on me. If I'm in a theatre, museum, school campus, or stadium. Anywhere I am is exactly where a firearm belongs.

Threats do not stop becuase firearms are banned anywhere.

 

[ATLDave]

Sam,

First off, sorry about the language. I have to admit, I wondered what you were talking about when I read your reply and had to scroll up to see what I had said. I was worried that I had said something insulting towards you or another poster, and was relieved to see that I had only directed it towards some hypothetical bad guy. Anyway, my apologies; you guys run a tight ship here, and I don't mean to disrupt it.

Second, re: the TSA being less-than-foolproof. Sure, they sometimes let one or another banned item through. The relevant question, though, is how often they let a firearm through, since that's what we're talking about.

Third, I've already acknolwedged that some things are possible, just not very likely. Humans are prone to take extremely unlikely events and treat them as though they were commonplace. The anti-gun crowd is particularly prone to that analytical mis-step. And there's always uncertainty in predicting future behavior of individual human beings. Do I know that individual, pre-meditated assaults of the type you express concern over are not going to happen in stadia? No. In fact, they probably will. Just very, very rarely, and with low cost compared to the mass casualty that would very likely (IMO) arise from having many fire-armed spectators in an athletic venue. I've described above why I think the risks are high of very high casualties at a gun-rich football game. You either buy that line of thinking, or you don't. People think the world works different ways; that's part of what makes discussions interesting.

Fourth, you are quite correct about the transit to/from the game. In fact, of all the times that I have the highest incilination to carry, it's when I'm using public transit to get to an athletic or other entertainment event. Venues are often in parts of town that are borderline or downright rough. Public transit puts you in direct contact with lots of strangers, and means you can't drive away from a problem. A sporting event means that the train or bus or station won't be empty, but it also means that lots of relatively affluent people who are otherwise a little less conveniently located for a monetarily-motivated criminal are literally within arm's reach.

If I were the owner of an NFL team (no more likely than me being the inventor of the tilting-barrel recoil mechanism, I'm afraid), I think I would make a gun-check counter available outside the gates. Any person carrying a firearm on their way to the stadium could tender it to a counter clerk and recieve a reciept, much as we hand our keys to a parking valet. At the conclusion of the event, patrons could retrieve firearms with their reciept, and carry on their way home. This approach would eliminate the crowded venue, impassioned atmosphere risks I think are so serious, and would let a law-abiding citizen carry everywhere except the place where those risks are most present. Those who have an absolutist, no-compromise view won't like it, but it's better than the situation present in almost every big stadium today; it sure beats hiding the gun behind some bushes outside the park and hoping it's there when you get back!

Anyway, thanks for the thoughtful and reasoned discussion.

 

[357 Terms]

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/gameon/post/2011/09/nfl-orders-ankles-up-frisks-for-16-million-fans-enterting-stadiums-security-buffalo-bills/1

Something else to think about.

 

[Leverb66]

Do concealed weapons BELONG in stadiums? I say probably not. Should ccw be allowed in stadiums? Sure.

I'm not sure that I would carry in a stadium if it was allowed. Although I might just so that I could defend myself to and from an event. The amount of people in stadiums doesn't allow for very safe shooting. I think I would have a hard time firing a gun in a crowded stadium. It seems the chances of an innocent bystander becoming invovled would be pretty high in a stadium. The mayhem created by drawing a gun in a stadium could be outrageous as well. Obviously, I want to be able to defend myself no matter where I am, but if I was allowed to carry in a stadium it would take the perfect circumstances for me to draw.

 

[NavyLCDR]

So, for those that arfe against having self protection available at a stadium, you would be in favor of the head to ankles frisk?
Here's an idea... make it illegal and against the rules to negligently handle firearms at a stadium, with a punishment enhancement if done while intoxicated... but leave my right to self protection alone.