Do special forces use stainless steel handguns?

[American_Pit_Bull]

All of the issued SIG P226s have stainless steel slides...

 

[Jimmy Newman]

Yep, in fact, all current production SIG pistols have stainless steel slides. Some have stainless frames and some have aluminum frames. As far as I know SIG does not use carbon steel for any slides or frames anymore (except I guess some of their new 1911's). Most of the stainless just has a black finish.

 

[TimboKhan]

Also, in their hostage drills, they practiced one-shot accuracy, so he placed more emphasis over accuracy than capacity.

I sort of take Marcinko with a grain of salt. I don't care how tough and awesome you are, you tell a superior to go to hell and/or sock him in the face, your gonna burn. I am not saying the guy is a liar or isn't/wasn't tough or good at what he did, and when I met him at a booksigning a few years back, he had one heck of a strong grip. I am simply saying that I think he developed a certain persona that was marketable to mall-ninjas, and that he enjoys being envisioned as the baddest dude ever to walk the plank. Hey, I'm not blaming the guy. As long as the root of what he says is true, which I think it is, I can live with the exaggerated language and claims of frequent bodily violence. He is out to make a buck, and he made a whole sack of them.

Back on topic, his book did include pictures of his team using revolvers, and he did say that they expended a huge amount of ammo training with them. That being said, I think that the whole one-shot accuracy thing is Marcinko blowing a bit of smoke, because any "operator" will tell you to shoot until the threat is over, one-shot accuracy be damned, at least to a point. I also don't know if I buy that his teams ammo training budget was quite as large as he says it was.

In any case, the fact is that they did use stainless revolvers, and I guess thats the most important thing in regards to this thread.

 

[Slamfire]

Government procurement philosophies change, depending on which Coconuts are in the Office of Secretary of Defense. But since Bush Sr. days, 99% of what is put out for procurement bid is performance specs. That is, the Government will specific that a gun has to perform before, during and after exposure to rain, sleet, salt fog exposure. Just look at Mil Std 810 and pick the environments that you think apply.

It is now up to the contractor to decide whether to use stainless of not.

Firearms technology is very mature, very old I might say. Lots of people make good guns, you really don’t have to spend any money pushing the technology envelope. Modern designs are very robust regards of the material technology. So, the manufacturers can submit a functioning model made from cheaper materials (carbon steel) with a high degree of confidence the thing will still pass the developmental tests. And, if all things are equal between competitors, they have margin to lower their bid price. Price is all important, because the Government buys from the lowest acceptable bidder.

 

[Cosmoline]

Cost is a big issue. Modern stainless is as tough as any blued steel. It's used in the highest PSI handguns in existence--taking far more pressure than any military sidearms would ever deliver. And it can be blackened if needed. But it would all cost more. And it tends to be heavier than an alloy firearm, to the exent that's an issue.

But I think Owen ID'd the core of the problem. The military does not adopt the latest and greatest, it would simply be too expensive to do that on a vast scale. Plus, they don't know if the latest and greatest will pan out or fall apart. Consequnently hey're from 50-20 years behind the civilian market in arms technology. Even the special forces must operate within these constraints to some extent. Smaller nations can afford to stay closer to the cutting edge in some respects because they don't have to retool millions of troops to make a change.

 

[pale horse]

"Delta boys (AKA, 1st Special Forces Operational Detachment-Delta) use whatever they want and I think most of them use an HK .45ACP."

What are you basing this on? One more thing they are now called CAG combat applications group. I know this because one of the higher nco's was in CAG.

More often than not the us army special forces use the M9. A few units get to use the 1911, but if it is not stated on their deployment orders they "technically" dont get issued the weapon. Some guys take it and dont even worry about it.

Seals generally use the sig 226 and some 228s. Just recently they got a contract for the HK CT .45.


As a rule you dont want to have a shiny weapon when you are engaged in a covert mission. In my time in the army and marines I have never seen a SS pistol issued.

PH

 

[Mikhail Konovalov]

Ahem... I am not in the military and admittedly have next to zero experience even conversing with spec-ops personnel of any sort, but I offer my opinion, and please swat me off my soap box if I'm way off here.

Maybe black has simply become the traditional color for military weapons? Just like you don't see zippers on dress uniform jackets, perhaps the black weapon in the hands of the soldier is more imposing, and professional-looking?

 

[Deanimator]

I sort of take Marcinko with a grain of salt. I don't care how tough and awesome you are, you tell a superior to go to hell and/or sock him in the face, your gonna burn.

Not necessarily. It depends upon the situation.

The year before I got to Korea, a lieutenant in my battalion (1/31 Inf.) pulled his personally owned .44 Magnum on the battalion commander because he melted down and wouldn't send a relief force to rescue a patrol that was pinned down in the DMZ and taking fire from three sides. I had my doubts about the story until I finally escaped that freakshow and worked at G-2 as an OPFOR instructor. While researching infiltration incidents for a class, I found an account of the incident in question and it was almost EXACTLY as described. At that point, I had little reason to doubt the veracity of the part about the confrontation in the Battalion TOC.

The lieutenant colonel in question was relieved. The lieutenant was NOT.

Of course 1/31 Inf. (M) in '80-'81 was pretty much like the Do Lung Bridge scene in Apocalypse Now. No adult supervision...

 

[Bart Noir]

Owen, you may have a point:

To preserve the position, every part that can be phosphated, must be phosphated.

I guess it is a good thing that the Musket Flint and Frizzen Inspector passed away many years ago


Bart Noir

 

[tank mechanic]

I saw one SF guy in Iraq carrying a SS 1911 with desert tan grips. He was carrying it in a strong side kydex holster. I wanted to ask him about it but I was too busy filling sandbags at the time:banghead:

 

[Slamfire]

"Delta boys (AKA, 1st Special Forces Operational Detachment-Delta) use whatever they want "

I have been told the same by a friend who works rebuilding small arms at Anniston Army Depot. The Army has takes these guys to various locations, including Hickman AFB Hawaii (take me, take me!) http://www2.hickam.af.mil/ to rebuild firearms. They were out at Fort Bliss for almost a month.

State Line , best darn sausage, ribs and Brisket I have ever eaten...
http://www.countyline.com/viewphoto.asp?id=5&nbr=1

 

[corvato]

I would think one problem with swat, or millitary other than possibly alerting the enemy... and thats there is always a chance when you are aiming the sun could actually reflect and hit the aimer in the eye... unlikely, but it could cause them to hesitate, which could mean a fraction longer before they pull the trigger

 

[Glockster35]

Swat personnel do sometimes operate in stealth, however; most situations do require dynamic entry.

I believe any weapon used by military personnel should be of a dark flat color. No shiney chrome, or stainless parts. Anything other than flat colored weapons do not have a place in military or law enforcement.

I don't even own anything flashy for personal use anymore, I once had a stainless revolver, but got rid of it because I didn't think it was tactical enough to use in a real world situation!

 

[GRIZ22]

US Customs ordered several hundred or several thousand S&W 4" Model 686 round butt .357 Magnum revolvers in a blackened stainless finish and since SEAL, Customs, and DEA have been known to work together it could be deducted that those revolvers were and/or are moved around between agency inventories.


Customs never ordered or used blackened stainless S&Ws. They did use 3 and 4" 686s that were marked CS1 instead of 686. Guns used by civilian agencies rarely if ever wind up in the military. It's usually the other way around. Customs had M3 greaseguns, M1 and M2 carbines, M14s, and m16s from the military at one time.

 

[Owen]

stainless doesn't have to be shiny.

 

[OrvilleYertleson]

SF uses regular run of the mil berettas. Teams might be able to justify different handguns for specialized missions, but it isn't commonplace.

 

[5Wire]

Posted by RNB65: SS is just for showing off.

Nonsense.

 

[Blade_Zero]

I was just having a bit of a lurk in the NSW section of socnet and came across the below. You can lurk over there, just don't bother them with silly questions.
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quote from Matchanu re: S&W 686
It's a 6 shot revolver, stainless steel, .38/.357 magnum.
For a weapon that is going to be constantly exposed to salt water, this is about as good as it gets. Sigs rust when you mention the word "salt water".

quote from armorer1 re: S&W 686
+1 on Match. I was an armorer (not a SEAL) for the Teams for nearly 10 years and the 686's are what the guys used back in the day for OTB. It's the pistol version of the AK-47 in that it's simple and won't jam up or rust. I've seen some nasty Sig's come into the armory that were exposed too long to saltwater

 

[skinewmexico]

If you talk to Walter Birdsong, he'll tell you he coats the majority of the SEAL weapons with Black T.

 

[littlegator]

Back when I was in Epsilon/Gamma Force, a name unknown to the general public until now, we used to use a modified variant of a specially made weapon that no one knows about. In fact, they gave me drugs to forget the name of the weapon once I got out. (Got shot 34 times in the chest and face with a AK-47 at arms length and went on disability). Therefore, I don't know. I remember it was cool looking though.

This message will self destruct in 10 seconds.

Delta boys (AKA, 1st Special Forces Operational Detachment-Delta) use whatever they want

So if that's true, what is it that they usually choose?

 

[Geronimo45]

we used to use a modified variant of a specially made weapon that no one knows about

The 22mm autoloader? I loved that thing. My group had a model based on the Mauser 712.

So if that's true, what is it that they usually choose?

Glock 7. Porcelain gun made in Germany. Invisible to x-rays and metal detectors. Cost more than you make in a month.

 

[benEzra]

How does stainless take to case hardening, particularly the carbon nitride variants?

 

[Sylvan-Forge]

Green-T on a stainless weapon and your good to go.