Do you buy it?

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by lysanderxiii, Apr 22, 2022.

  1. lysanderxiii

    lysanderxiii Member

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    If someone tried to sell you a new cartridge with this ad copy, would you buy it?

    "The predicted increase in lethality of a high velocity . . . round over . . . other conventional calibers has been explained on the basis of a combination of size of transient cavity (shock contributor which varies as the square of the bullet velocity), hydrostatic effect of high velocity (bursting of organs, etc., by pressure transmitted through the blood liquid system), and a unique high speed tumbling capability of a high velocity bullet on entering flesh (causing hemorrhaging and tearing of tissue and delivering more energy of the bullet to the body).

    "The practical results of firing in the field . . . against objects of the general consistency of the human body (water cans, coconuts, [watermelons], deer) . . . demonstrate a higher level of lethality than predicted laboratory data."
     
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  2. AlexanderA
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    AlexanderA Member

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    Sounds like a word salad, so, no.
     
  3. GBExpat

    GBExpat Member

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    I would be happy that I do not have to fear stepping in it. Getting that out of the lugs on the boot(s) would probably be tough ...
     
  4. brewer12345

    brewer12345 Member

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    54 cal round ball propelled by black powder kills game quite dead, let along 30-06. I see no reason to jump on a bandwagon simply due to claims about lethality.
     
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  5. north east redneck
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    north east redneck Member

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    Sounds like a bunch of nonsense. Not impressed.
     
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  6. bannockburn

    bannockburn Member

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    lysander
    Sounds like a bunch of gibberish to me; like they strung together someone else's ad copy in the hope that it will impress the reader with the lethality of this new "wonder round".

    So in a word...NO

    And I would like to know what parts of the human anatomy most resemble: a water can, a coconut, a watermelon, and a deer?
     
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  7. Ignition Override

    Ignition Override Member

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    Not necessarily.

    They are trying too hard to market that product.

    At least the sales pitch is Not on the level of a 6 year-old child, unlike several 'speeches' by one of our current "leaders" whose staff is steadily resigning.
     
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  8. Scooter22

    Scooter22 Member

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    No but the uniformed and government will. We have a bunch of great older cartridges that will fit almost anything you want to do. The exception is to fit a certain platform like all the new ones for the AR. I'm so old school I think you could do everything with a .22LR, 9mm, 12ga and a 30-06. But I'm simple and not a salesman. I do have about 20 cartridges I use but thats based on the old rifles I have. Not new ones. The most modern one is a 7mm-08.
     
  9. twofewscrews

    twofewscrews Member

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    Anything with hydrostatic effect or shock is straight marketing bs. Bullets traveling faster then 2300fps or so, basically rifle rounds, do cause skin and tissue to tear which causes more damage but that has to do with the elasticity of the human body not some fantastical pressure wave generated by the bullet. I wouldn't buy it.
     
  10. Archie

    Archie Member

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    That ad copy touted the 'new' cartridge as having greater lethality because of the high muzzle velocity.

    Okay how long with the bullet used maintain that velocity? How much ballistic coefficient does the bullet have? What chamber pressure is needed to drive the bullet (whatever it is) at the advertised velocity?

    I'll pass. I've got everything I want to do - and some extremes - covered. Thanks for your time.
     
  11. frogfurr

    frogfurr Member

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    First paragraph was impressive. Then the writer goes on talking about watermelons, water cans, and coconuts.
     
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  12. starnbar

    starnbar Member

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    I got some pictures of my dad on Iwo Jima with some Marines who were flushing out japs from the caves they were carrying frags and winchester pumps and a doberman. dad said they got the caves around the airfields cleaned out in 3 days. So much for velocity
     
  13. Old Dog

    Old Dog Member

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    Way too hard.

    OP, you gonna tell us where you found your VP Harris word-salad ad copy?
     
  14. edwardware

    edwardware Member

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    I'm with @AlexanderA. I'm an engineer, fully capable of writing that sort of technical gibberish correctly. I recognize it as an example of the Baffle Them With Bull tactic.

    If it was an attempt to clearly transmit information, it would be clearer.
     
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  15. John_R

    John_R Member

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    At the other end of the spectrum, KelTec would say it’s a round used by people who drink their own urine to survive.
     
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  16. herrwalther

    herrwalther Member

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    I cannot remember the last time I flipped through a gun magazine and found an ad informative enough for me to buy it.
     
  17. lysanderxiii

    lysanderxiii Member

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    The (Im)famous "Hitch Report"*

    US Dept of Defense Deputy Assistant Secretary, Systems Analysis. A Comparison of AR-15 and M14 Rifles (Effectiveness and Cost), 27 September 1962

    "
    Lethality

    "Item V.
    The AR-15 rifle bullet is significantly more lethal than the M14.

    "The greater lethality of the .22 caliber high velocity bullet has been predicted in a series of Army Laboratory studies and experiments since 1952** and resulted in the commercial development of the AR-15 rifle, based on a 55 gr 3300 fps round at the suggestion of CONARC.

    "The predicted increase in lethality of a high velocity.22 caliber round over the M14 7.62mm and other conventional calibers has been explained on the basis of a combination of size of transient cavity (shock contributor which varies as the square of the bullet velocity), hydrostatic effect of high velocity (bursting of organs, etc., by pressure transmitted through the blood liquid system), and a unique high speed tumbling capability of a high velocity bullet on entering flesh (causing hemorrhaging and tearing of tissue and delivering more energy of the bullet to the body).

    "The practical results of firing in the field with the AR-15 rifle against objects of the general consistency of the human body (water cans, coconuts, deer) and against human targets in combat in Vietnam demonstrate*** a higher level of lethality than predicted laboratory data.

    "It is apparent that all factors present in wound ballistics are not yet understood."

    This section also has this gem:

    "At the cost of a small loss in armor penetrating ability at some ranges (a characteristic of doubtful military value in a rifle), a weapon of caliber smaller than .30 providing a corresponding higher velocity offers generally superior wounding power . . . "


    _____________________________
    * Charles J. Hitch (January 9, 1910 – September 11, 1995) was an American economist and Assistant Secretary of Defense (Comptroller) from 1961 to 1965. BA in economics in 1931, a staff economist and later a member of the War Production Board during WW2, honorably discharged after the war as a First Lieutenant. That's a good resume for someone to discuss the merits of a proposed infantry weapon.

    ** Actually the 1952 Army studies were around a 60 to 70 grain bullet traveling around 3,600 fps. But 10 to 20 grains and 300 fps, that's virtually the same, right?

    *** Whoooo-boy, you should read that report AD0343778 - "Field Test Report, AR-15 Armalite Rifle-Final Report", especially when they start to discuss the combat effectiveness about half way through. very exaggerated.
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2022
  18. ACES&8S

    ACES&8S Member

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    That was the reintroduction of the 6.5 Creedmoor isn't it ?
    That is close to how they pushed it.
    Anything in the 6 range is undiscovered country according to advertising. I didn't buy into it.
     
  19. entropy

    entropy Member

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    They stole H-K's old schtick.....remember the guy in the creek with an HK91?

    As for the description in the first post, I agree with edwardware, it's a prime example of "If you can't bedazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bull".
     
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  20. The Black Prince

    The Black Prince Member

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    Why does this read like a push for the military to adopt the M16?
     
  21. lysanderxiii

    lysanderxiii Member

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    Because that's what it was.

    This is the report that Stevens and Ezell make such a big deal about in their book, "The Black Rifle", as "THE" report that justified the Army to buy some.
     
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  22. Demi-human
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    Demi-human maybe likes firearms a little bit…

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    The ad reads very different when we already have what it’s trying to sell.;)

    That the report was a salad of cash-phrases to sell a weapon to politicians is not surprising. That they embellished parts to gain a multi million dollar contract, similarly not surprising.


    The fact that the rifle and cartridge in question is the most ubiquitous on the planet after such baloney peddling, is a bit surprising. But I’ve never held that politicians were intelligent. We might not be swayed by the “bedazzlement”, but some shmoe that rides a limo to Capital Hill would probably lap it up like a starved puppy. Who wouldn’t want to have their men more lethal?

    It’s tough to look objectively at history through our future eyes.

    Conversely, who thinks the first venerable military cartridge is still viable for modern day conflict? Yes, the 45/70. As sure a buffalo killer as ever was. A man is nothing to it. But who would trade an AR for a lever gun and head to Mariupol? I’ll pass, thanks.


    As many reports about things that I see written, I find it hard to believe that this is the singular advertisement copy that swayed such decisions.

    But the choice was also about the entire package. New rifle, new cartridge.
    And with it, a new method of fighting. I think they call it “Air Superiority”.:D
     
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  23. John_R

    John_R Member

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    So, has it proven to be more lethal than .308/30-06?
     
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  24. Demi-human
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    Demi-human maybe likes firearms a little bit…

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    “It’s lethality is a Venn diagram made by the specific circumstances and use, and many other sets, where there isn’t an area set denoted as “more”, but from which a decision in the continuum of “More or Less” lethal than a .30 caliber bullet class cartridge could be made.”

    :)
     
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  25. lysanderxiii

    lysanderxiii Member

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    Remember that Hitch was an economist. The biggest section of the report is where he explains that you can buy more M16s and M16 bullets for the same money than an M14.
     
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