Do you carry into places where they post signs telling you not to?

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by big inch, Mar 23, 2005.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. mainmech48

    mainmech48 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2003
    Messages:
    1,846
    Location:
    Indiana
    In the small Indiana town where I live there are no businesses of which I am aware that have such a sign posted. Should I find one, I would turn around and leave. Then I would send them a polite letter telling them that I took my business to "X" competitor and why.

    On the rare occasion that I go to our post office, I place my carry piece in the concealed steel locker installed for that pupose in back of the seat in my truck. While the chances of being caught violating the ban on carry in this particular Federal facility might be small, the potential consequences in terms of arrest record and being bankrupted by attorney's fees make tempting Fate unattractive.

    On the even rarer visit to our county court/office building it's the same drill.

    Tilt with the windmill all you like, but keep in mind who gets hurt when you lose.
     
  2. Bobarino

    Bobarino member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2003
    Messages:
    1,625
    Location:
    western Washington
    i live in WA and Pax summed it up pretty well. on the rare occasion that i run into a no weapons sign in a private business, i take my business elsewhere. in other cases, such as the post office and national parks, which i frequent, the only way anyone would ever know i was carrying is if i had to actually draw my firearm in self defense and then, as previously stated, i would have much bigger things to worry about than the trespassing or possession charge. i'd rather be alive and in a courtroom than dead with my gun securely locked up in the glove box. just an opinion.

    Bobby
     
  3. GRB

    GRB member

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2005
    Messages:
    1,774
    Big Inch,

    I have to say that I think you are the misguided one in regard to your words on this topic, that is if what you seem to be implying is what you actually do - and that would be that you enter armed despite the wishes of the property owner. No matter what a person feels about firearms or firearms laws, no matter what side of the issue they are on, does not make one iota of difference to the property owner's right to restrict anyone from entering his/her property while armed. It is by definition that person's property - it is not your property - and the words you chose to write, in my opinion, reflect or at least hint at a high level of disrespect and arrogant disregard for another person's rights if indeed you actually disregard those wishes and enter such propert armed. I think they also speak of a along with a certain measure of irresponsibility toward gun ownership.

    My guess is that you said is based on what you believe to be your rights. Your rights as granted by the Constitution of the United States apply to federal government and to state governments not to the wishes of private citizens (in general unless they violate you civil rights or violate the law). There is absolutely no violation of your rights by a private citizen keeping you off of his/her property while you are armed unless the law specifically grants you such a right and federal law does not (I cannot speak to every state's laws). I think, an attitude like the one implied in your words can potentially do a lot to screw the rest of the gun owning community who prefer to respect the rights and wishes of others just as we would hope they would respect our gun ownership rights.

    Better than going into such an establishment would probably be your staying out all together when armed or not. Then make it known to the owner that you are in effect boycotting the establishment based upon your ideas about gun ownership and carrying on private property of others. Get other gun owners to do likewise. (It did a lot with regard to K-Mart when they decided, or were planning, to stop selling firearms.) If it is a business, then the business may well change the rule if enough of us are active in this regard. Activists come in all sizes, shapes, colors, religions and in all political persuasions. You don't have to be a ultra left lib to be active in trying to support your cause. Doing what you are doing or what you have said you are doing is likely to get you in trouble and to help put another nail in the coffins of legal firearms ownership and concealed carry. When you or another like you gets discovered carrying against the will of the property owner, well - it can often lead to bad press or at least to bad relations with the property owner.

    You of course can do as you please, the sad thing is that the whole of the gun owning community is often negatively effected by the actions of a single gun owner. I would hope you would reconsider how you approach an establishment that prohibits firearms on the premises.

    As for me I ask the owner if I can enter with the firearm because I am carrying it as a federal agent. Most times they allow me in. I have left my firearm locked away in the security office at many courthouses and also in some casinos (this was state law in the casinos and as for the courthouses it was the regulations and I was working and had to go in). I also have left it locked up in a lock box with US Customs when I went into mexico and Canada.

    I was stopped at a Gun Show by local police at the door and they told me I had to unload it, have it strapped with a nylon locking tie, and carry it exposed in that manner. I was also told I could put it in my car. A brief talk with their next higher superior officer got me an apology and an explanation that the officers had been acting under a mistaken assumption. I went in still armed. This was not violating rules, nor was it taking advantage of my status as a federal agent, it was me carrying under my federal authority and, it was two cops at the door with an order and no common sense or, it was at least 2 cops without the desire to use their duly authorized and appropriate discretion. If however, the sergeant had told me I was not going in armed, I would have left. If I had been carrying a personal weapon that was not also doubling as an agency approved carry weapon, I would have had it tied or would not have entered. I probably would have left. As it was I registered my complaint with the Police Depatment and with the GunShow promoter. I found out this was the doing of the Police Department in the local community and not the promoter's wish, so I stayed and enjoyed the gun show.

    All the best,
    GB
     
  4. Ktulu

    Ktulu Member

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2003
    Messages:
    1,071
    Location:
    Michigan
    Actually Glenn, you are misguided as well. The Constitution grants no rights. It merely seeks to protect some of the rights that are inherent to all human beings. This isn’t just semantics it is part of the very heart of liberty and freedom.

    However, I agree that it's the store owners right to refuse service to anyone on any grounds. The storeowners right to use their property as he/she wishes does not negate my right to protect myself and vice versa. If I wish to patronize his/her store I must temporarily forfeit my right to KABA. To ignore his/her right to do with their property as they wish is trespassing. It's a violation of someone’s rights just as sure as gun control is a violation of mine.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2005
  5. secamp32

    secamp32 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2004
    Messages:
    318
    zogorion

    I find it difficult to believe that any on-duty police officer would disarm themselves while answering a call. I would not. If there is an emergency that requires police response they can not prevent us from entering armed. The only time we lock our guns in the car is when we go to the jail, and then only after we are thru the gate. (before we remove the prisoner from the car)
     
  6. Too Many Choices!?

    Too Many Choices!? Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2005
    Messages:
    763
    I usually just pull my "piece" and shoot the sign....NO sign....No PROBLEM!!!!!

    :)

    PS gotta love Gods sense of humor making penal code number correspond to a totally unconcealable and one of the most popular rifle calibers.... :evil:
     
  7. Tom Servo

    Tom Servo Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2004
    Messages:
    1,324
    Location:
    The hilly SE
    "No guns?" No business. Here in Georgia, there's no legally-enforceable sign, but some businesses have their own signs. If possible, I avoid them.

    In this part of the country, you don't stay in business long by banning gunowners :)

    That said, the only two places I frequent that have signs are the Post Office (which I observe--that could get hairy) and a certain bank who has my mortgage. Ironically, said national bank has no security whatsoever, and the closest branch to me is in a neighborhood largely populated by illegals and meth-addicts. I'll carry there, thank you.

    Good example of the ramifications of those signs: Waffle House has signs forbidding firearms. The one near me has had two shootings on the premises and five or six in the parking lot this year so far. There's an IHOP two blocks away where I'm never the only person carrying, and they've had nothing worse than the occasional dine-and-dash in the seven years they've been open.
     
  8. 30 cal slob

    30 cal slob Member

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2004
    Messages:
    2,091
    Location:
    Location, Location!
    1) Posted places don't get my business. Just as well, they are gun-free victim zones.

    2) On the other hand, it's not such a good idea leaving your gun in your car, where it could get stolen.

    Cops I talk to get really ticked off about #2, because it's cops who then have to pull yet another gun off the street.

    Catch-22 I suppose. I can understand why CCWer's will just ignore posted no-carry signs (I've only seen this in North Carolina, Florida, and Texas).
     
  9. R.H. Lee

    R.H. Lee Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2004
    Messages:
    7,376
    Location:
    CA
    And that makes you special, right?
     
  10. rritter

    rritter Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2003
    Messages:
    236
    Location:
    Deepinaharta Texas
    The way I figure it, in Texas there is a legally defined way for a property owner to post a sign banning guns, and enforce that policy with the power of the state. Any place that does not post a compliant sign isn't really serious about keeping guns off the property, and is just posting the sign they have ("No firearms", for instance) to keep the non-gun folks happy.

    That said, if they find out that you have a gun and ask you to leave, or notify you personally (by voice or in writing) that guns are prohibited, you must leave or possibly face trespass charges.
     
  11. MarkDido

    MarkDido Member

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2003
    Messages:
    1,100
    Location:
    FL
    If I were HPD, I would advise that mall to contract with some private security firm, because MY officers would not be responding to their facility unarmed.
     
  12. TechBrute

    TechBrute Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2003
    Messages:
    3,264
    Location:
    DFW, TX
    Even the most anti-gun morons don't want police with their zen-ninja gun ability to be unarmed. ***? :banghead:
     
  13. Standing Wolf

    Standing Wolf Member in memoriam

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    24,038
    Location:
    Idahohoho, the jolliest state
    I've never seen such a sign in Colorado. If I ever do, I'll probably ignore it.
     
  14. Norm357

    Norm357 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2003
    Messages:
    393
    Location:
    atlanta
    In Ga, those signs carry no legal weight, so I just ignore them.
     
  15. Norm357

    Norm357 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2003
    Messages:
    393
    Location:
    atlanta
    "There is a shopping mall here in my area, that is widely known to have a "No Guns" policy. The security guards can't carry at the mall, and the local Police Department has to lock thier guns in their cruiser before they respond to a call inside the mall. This is true, I asked the local LEA."


    I call BS on this. Im sure that VA has some law or statue that forbids disarming on duty LEOs.
     
  16. Andrew Rothman

    Andrew Rothman Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2003
    Messages:
    2,668
    Location:
    MN
    I can't figure out whether I'm a pragmatic idealist or an idealistic pragmatist.

    My state's laws are just like Pax's, as is my personal decision tree.

    I pragmatically ignore the unenforcable signs, but prefer to shop where my rights are respected, and I let merchants know.

    On the other hand, I won't disarm and I won't let silly ninnies dictate the path that I travel. So in the absence of lawsd with teeth or metal detectors, I go armed wherever I go.

    The other day I had to visit the claims department at my auto insurance company's regional headquarters. They had a lobby with two unarmed guards, a passcard system to get past the lobby, and a "no guns" sign -- two out of three of which served no purpose at all.

    Which two is left as an exercise for the reader. :D
     
  17. answerguy

    answerguy Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2002
    Messages:
    881
    Location:
    Bay City Michigan
    Well Matt, let me give it a try.

    The 'no guns' sign is obviously useless in preventing crime. I'd venture a guess that a sign has never stopped a crime from being committed. And may have well caused crime by letting criminals know that their victims will be unarmed.

    The unarmed guards will stop some criminals just by their presense, but won't stop a determined criminal. If the guards aren't totally disabled they can at least call for cops (guys with guns).

    I'd have to see what this passcard system looks like to venture a guess about it.
     
  18. 50 Freak

    50 Freak Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2003
    Messages:
    952
    You know it seems like to me that the only ones worried about these "no guns allowed" signs are law abiding citizens. If I was a criminal and illegally carrying I wouldn't give a rat's ass if I saw that sign or not.

    Just keep this point in mind if you ever disarmed before entering someplace because of some stupid "no guns allowed". If that place get hit by an armed bad guy, just how much help will you get from that sign. Are the owners of that store obligated to protect you or your loved ones now that you left your gun in the car?
     
  19. GRB

    GRB member

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2005
    Messages:
    1,774
    RileyMC,

    I said this:
    Then someone who I will not try to imply is special or less than special said this:
    I guess if you mean I consider myself special because of the fact that I asked for the owner's permission or asked the police sergeant's permission before trying to sneak in armed, as opposed to thinking I am special because of my status and authority to carry as a federal law enforcement officer - then yes I am special. I am special because I showed respect to the owner and actually asked permission to enter his/her property armed, or because I asked if the rule also applies to armed LEOs and so on. Respectful people are always quite special.

    Were you implying something else by your question? Did you by chance mean that I think my status as a federal law enforcement officer makes me special, well I'll answer - by definition it does exactly just that because I am a Special Agent.

    In actuality I do not think myself special because I am a federal agent. I am however authorized to carry at all times, and if I wanted or needed to get into the establishment that had a 'no firearms' sign I would ask permission and enter if granted or, I would lock up my gun (if it was a law or regulation as in some states regarding casinos) or, I would not go in because I chose not to do business therein (as in the case of a gun store saying no firearms inside). Know why I ask at places like Casinos? I ask at places like casinos because I am not aware of all the laws regarding them. Are you aware of the laws regarding firearms in casinos and how they apply to federal agents. I am not. If I ask first and they let me in that is well and fine. If they say it is a state law that I cannot enter armed, then I politely ask where I can store my firearms.

    From the way you worded your post, I get the idea that you seem to think I feel myself special. Of course, maybe I am reading your post wrong but then again I doubt it. There is always one in the crowd who immediately has to be the wise guy and try to put down an LEO. Funny how that 'right' at the end of your sentence can give one the idea of a certain implication as opposed to making one think it was a legitimate and polite question. If the way I read your post is correct, let me just say how amusing it is to see you think like that after the way I worded my previous post. I tried darned hard to show just the opposite of me thinking myself special (except maybe manners wise) but; let me spell it out for you again here:

    I am not special that is why I do not sneak a gun past security.

    I am not special that is why I honor a property owner's wishes if they want no guns at all on their property.

    I am not special that is why I ask if the rules also apply to armed law enforcement officers, it is just a fact that the rules are often different for armed LEOs. For instance I can travel anywhere within the US armed. I can fly on any domestic flight armed. Can you do that legally. I can. That does not make me special - it makes my being allowed to carry at such times an exception to the rule.

    Hopefully you can better understand my outlook through this post since you seemingly, at least to me, had difficulty understanding my last post. Hopefully this has answered your question.

    Best regards,
    Glenn B
     
  20. 3rdpig

    3rdpig Member

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    603
    Signs? Signs? What signs? I'm a busy guy with a lot on my mind, I don't have time to read no stinkin' signs! If for some reason my concealed weapon becomes visible and I'm asked to leave I certainly will (and not go back), but so far after 26 years of daily carry I've seen no signs and have never been asked to leave for carrying a weapon. If anyone were to ask me why I didn't see the sign I'd probably say "I was checking out the babe in tight jeans in front of me and didn't see it, maybe you should ban girls in tight clothes if you want us guys to see your stinkin' signs".
     
  21. Mannlicher

    Mannlicher Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    3,441
    Location:
    North Central Florida and Miami Florida
    Who? Me?
     
  22. akviper

    akviper Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2004
    Messages:
    177
    Location:
    Alaska
    No guns = no money from my pocket. Federal no carry facilities do not give you any option if you absolutely have to do business there. You do not want to end up in federal court as the judges have no sense of humor whatsoever. I visited the Mall of America last year. I entered through the Nordstrom's store and there was no sign. When I got to the inner mall entrance I saw the no guns sign. Normally I would turn around but curiosity got the best of me. I made the mistake of buying several items at a clothing store. When I went to leave, I saw a small firearms prohibited in this store sign that I missed on the way in. I immediately returned to the check stand and returned the items I had just purchased. When they asked why I pointed to their sign and told them I didn't do business in stores that would only allow criminals to carry firearms. They weren't happy but I got my money back. As to the mall that prohibits even LE from entering with firearms, I think your chief LEO needs to have a "come to God" talk with them. As a chief LEO I would not allow my officers to enter without full safety equipment. Before any one tries to imply that I'm trying to argue special privilidges for LE that is not my point. I believe the no guns signs are only obeyed by the good guys. The bad guys won't even think twice when they walk past the sign with their weapons.
     
  23. GaryP

    GaryP Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2005
    Messages:
    755
    Location:
    USA
    This issue is a "No Brainer" for me! I just conduct my business elsewhere unless it is a Bank, Post Office, School, Government Building, Parade, any Public place that collects an Admission Fee -- Theaters, Fairs, Ball Games etc --, or an Establishment where Alcoholic Beverages are sold(No carry zones in NC :( ) in which case I abide by North Carolina Law unless I unintentionally forget due to being focused on whatever and in a hurry! OOPS! :D




    :evil:
     
  24. Bobarino

    Bobarino member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2003
    Messages:
    1,625
    Location:
    western Washington
    i wonder the same thing as 50 Freak. if a business chooses to disarm its customers and said customer is injured in a manner that could have been prevented with a firearm, is the owner liable? what obligation does the owner have to keep their customers safe if they choose to disarm them?

    GB,

    so if i, as a citizen concerned for my own safety, ask for the owner's permission to carry on the premisis as you did, then am i special too? does the sign say "no guns excpet for police, federal agents and special people that ask permission"? and if it says no guns, how does being a federal agent entitle you to priveledges that i don't have? after all, i'm authorized to carry everywhere it isn't prohibited by law too. should exceptions be made for me just because i ask? i'm not trying to start an arguement with you, just want you to think about what you think really makes you special. in your posts, it does sound like you think its because you're a federal agent. after all as a federal agent should you not try to set an example by following the posted laws and rules and not ask for exceptions because of your job?

    Bobby
     
  25. RRTX

    RRTX Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2004
    Messages:
    542
    Location:
    Crowley, TX
    I do the same as most of my fellow Texans posted already, unless it's the legal 30.06 posting I ignore it.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice