Do you think that the dealers in ammo are being up charged?

[dogtown tom]

Or do you think they are just gouging. I am not sure if they are passing along the hit or if they are gouging due to shortages. Its not just one dealer its most all of the them.

Really?
ANOTHER THREAD ABOUT AMMUNITION PRICES????

Please momma, make the man stop!!!!!

1. No such thing as "gouging". It's a term used by those wholly and completely ignorant of the most simple and basic aspect of economics.

2. Law of Supply & Demand. It's a thing. Google it.

3. Don't like the price? Buy elsewhere. Then post about your score on Instagram whatever that is. Or on TikTok dancing around your brick of .22 short.

4. It's nothing new. Ammunition and firearm scarcity and high demand has happened numerous times in the last twelve years, oh, lets count:
2008 Obamas election
2009 Ft Hood shooting
2012 Aurora movie theater shooting, Obamas reelection, Sandy Hook
2016 Orlando nightclub shooting
2017 Las Vegas concert shooting
All of those impacted the availability and price of ammunition. The market recovered each time. But it happened again. And it will recover and happen again and still people will be blissfully ignorant of what happens to the firearms market during an election cycle.

5. Given the ammo shortages above........why on earth is the scarcity of cheap ammunition A SURPRISE!!!!

6. You think gouging, but put yourself in the shoes of the LGS:
He can keep ammunition at prepanic prices, will sell out, then faces months until a distributor will sell him more.
He can raise prices to market price, that increase helping keep his business going until ammunition supplies stabilize.

7. It isn't your property, what right do you have telling someone else what to charge for THEIR property? Don't like it? Then shut up and move on. If no one likes that price then no one is "gouged". If someone thinks the price acceptable then they made a grown mans decision that the price is worth the squeeze.

8. Market pricing discourages "flippers". Internet Einsteins bemoan the high price of ammunition, but will eagerly buy all they can so they can resell at a profit. An LGS that has the same price though.....they gouging.

9. Dislike gougers, market pricing, flippers? Then you'll love Venezuela and Cuba. Of course they have a thriving black market of all the goods you can't find on store shelves. Capitalism, I love it.

10. Most important of all...........please learn from experience. If you are short on ammunition IT'S YOUR FAULT. I'm not talking about prepping or hoarding.....just being aware that ammo shortages occur and your need to plan accordingly. Over the last four years ammunition and firearms have been extraordinarily affordable. I bought 10,000 rounds of .22LR from Palmetto in 2018 and they not only shipped it free, but gave me ten free PMags. I liked that deal so a week later did it again. Should I sell it for a modest profit? Oh heck no. If someone wants to buy part of my stash they'll need to pay for their lack of planning.

 

[gifbohane]

Really? You don't think P&G sells to Walmart cheaper than they do your local grocery store?[/QUOTE

You bet the ranch that on paper they better be. Walmart has their own way of stealing from vendors. Having dealt with them I could write a book about it. Any medium sixed law firm with copies of invoices as proof would take that case on a contingency AND win.

 

[gifbohane]

Robinson-Patman was established to control the minimum pricing stores can sell at, not the maximum. It's to prevent a large corporation from loss-leadering or adding extras onto a product in order to drive out the small mom and pop store. Not relevant to what we are talking about with stores selling for higher prices.

The consumer can not buy from the high priced store and travel to the store that is lower priced. Robinson-Patman was established because there would be no reason for a consumer to buy a higher priced item from a mom and pop store when the big chain store is selling products at a loss in order to drive out competition.

I will not debate this with anyone. You CANNOT sell the the same good at the different prices into a marketplace. Restraint of Trade.

 

[ApacheCoTodd]

I don't think either answer accurately depicts the likely scenarios.

Of course, market dictates at the base of all of it but, much of the time, an intermediary will initiate a bidding scenario between manufacturer and consumer and the bump naturally gets passed on.

"Hey Bob, I need to get in some 9mm. What've ya got?"

"11 cases but they're about to go out."

"What're ya gettin' for 'em?"

"$**** per case."

"I'll go better than that at $**** if you can get me some too!"

A VERY common scenario in which the price goes up with none of the eternally winning about *gouging* existing.

Most, if not all, of last years orders and contracts were dissipated some time ago so market rules.

Todd.

 

[BreechFace]

I will not debate this with anyone. You CANNOT sell the the same good at the different prices into a marketplace. Restraint of Trade.

Well I won't be subject to your misinterpretation of law.

Now you would be correct in bringing Robinson-Patman into the argument if you feel that specifically the manufacturers or wholesalers are treating retailers differently on pricing. And this I know happens, I'll agree with you in that premise.

 

[George P]

When t

I don't go by the BS of some here who put out a fake definition of price gouging. There is a clear definition and its going on in ammo and guns right now.
Everyone is wanting to get in on the gouging so IMO everyone in the supply line is causing it. I can see limiting ammo sales to one box per person per what ever as long as supplies are low. But the cost to produce ammo did not suddenly go up. Its the same or close to what it was a year ago. So its pure gouging. If it were not why is it when I do see Walmart or Orchlans get ammo in they are the same price they were this time last year? Its because the manufactures are not gouging. Missouri Bullet Co is having hard time filling orders but their prices did not suddenly go through the roof. Anyone who says its capitalism is an out of touch ignorant person. We can not live under a Laissez-Fjaire Capitalism the Gov would let company's have monopoly's, let them do what ever it is they want. Just like when companies let workers health go. I.E. The Radium Girls, Coal Miners, the Triangle Shirt Factory ect. Price gouging is one example. Ammo is not a needed thing so its not gov watched. But next time there is a disaster and your local gas station trys to spike the gas 10 bucks a gal, or your super market wants 25 dollars for a banana lets see how many so call fools who support unregulated capitalism fits into your utopian ideology. My guess is it would be like those idiots who think national health care is evil but once they are on Medicare its keep your darn hands off my medicare. LMAO Reminds me of the old farts who get drunk on scotch or PBR calling someone using Marijuana a looser. Some dogs you can not teach.

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/price-gouging
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_gouging

When that next disaster comes, if you did not prepare before hand, you deserve to pay $10/gallon of gas and $25 for a banana. Stupid should hurt and government price control do not teach the stupid the lesson they need to learn.

 

[castile]

Total BS. If you did not prepare for a disaster you deserve the consequences. What archaic rock did you climb out from under? You must be an Atheist and believer in survival of the fittest. Let me guess you go to church on Sunday and call yourself a Christian. LMAO

 

[CapnMac]

Also, ammo factories did not necessarily add production shifts. Not while there were lockdowns, or forced personnel separations (or employees actually out with the couf).

The factories also cannot simply whistle up trained employees to demand. If you have 100 employees on day shift, you can't just go find 80 trained employees to man up 2nd shift. Somebody has to train the people on the new shift, and you need supervisors and shift leaders, too, some of whom may not be able to work 2nd. This redoubles adding 3rd shift.
There's also about a 10% bump needed to staff swing, and 15% for graveyard just in base pay. So, adding two shifts just increased your payroll by 225%--not a trifling expense. Absenteeism is higher and production volume is lower on 2nd & 3rd shifts, too.

Also, the factories have to have access (and purchasing power) to increase their raw materials to make new product.

This is complicated stuff.

 

[CGilbert74]

I can't be certain and I think it may vary based on the dealer. I know of some resellers, one in particular locally that has teams scouring Bass Pro, Academy etc. on stocking days and then marking it up to the stratosphere online, it's not cool - utterly ridiculous levels that I wouldn't dream of paying, but that some newcomers will as they just don't know any better. I think most non-national chain LGS's are in the same boat we all are right now and just can't get inventory. After having been through this several times now I'd like to think it will eventually return to normal, however I've never seen it this bad before.

 

[George P]

I will not debate this with anyone. You CANNOT sell the the same good at the different prices into a marketplace. Restraint of Trade.

BS done all the time; called discounts, volume pricing, whatever other name you want. Your small town gun dealer does not get the same pricing on things like guns like a major chain does, and never will.

 

[castile]

The simple fact is that there is a lot of gouging going on. At every level. Only the big stores like Midway, Cabelas, Walmart [what ammo they do sell any more] and others who don't make money off of one item are not gouging. The mom and pop stores presonally I don't shop at any way. They are high day in and day out just because they are so small. And by mom and pop I man that small local GS down the road that has a few boxes of any one ammo at any one time. Not SG or some of the bigger bulk sellers. Mom and Pop shops don't hold any value for me and never will. The only reason I would stop in is to see if they ran across something that is a good buy. I. E. Grandma died and the grand kids brought in dads luger. Most times the local shops will act like they have gold but once in a while they miss something. I have not went to a gun show or Mom and Pop shop in years. Its just a waste of time. When I can get it cheaper on line. Not my job to give my money to someone local just so they can stay in business.

 

[ericuda]

Not sure. Walmart while limited on ammo has same prices as a year ago. Maybe plus or minus a dollar or 2.

 

[DustyGmt]

I know for a fact that at least some dealers are getting hosed. I think it might have been a member here who posted up a notice from Winchester alerting customers/dealers that ammunition was going up in cost.

My regular guy at the LGS always has fair prices, only recently I went in because he posted some ammo for sale and it was 9mm $35/50. A week before it was $19 and not long before that it was $15. For most of the panic when everybody was charging $0.60-$0.70 rd he was still being way reasonable. I think he keeps his margins as is, I think he just got boned on the price. Having no ammo to sell with your guns is not a winning business model so you get what you can I guess.

 

[WestKentucky]

Jake recently addressed a thread along similar lines, but i think it was specifically regarding reloading components. He was talking about the costs of business and one of those costs is raw materials and the cost for lead has gone up. With lead being more expensive then that makes loaded ammo more expensive.

From what I have seen, the issue is not cost but volume. Places like Walmart will write a check for millions of rounds, where the local guy will write a check for a few thousand rounds. Who gets the ammo? The guy who prepaid a million bucks or the guy who is trying to pay $300 at time of sale? Same thing happens with guns, tools, bicycles...

 

[DustyGmt]

one of those costs is raw materials and the cost for lead has gone up.

I saw a garage sale post a while back that was 90 lbs of lead, said "make offer, want gone". I thought about it in terms of maybe one day putting it to use in casting but I sat on my hands because of just not having the setup and have no idea what happened to it. I'm wondering if that was a mistake. Is lead pretty expensive? I got the impression that it was basically a giveaway priced item, could have thrown out $25-$50 as an offer and probably would have got it. Should have.

 

[WestKentucky]

I saw a garage sale post a while back that was 90 lbs of lead, said "make offer, want gone". I thought about it in terms of maybe one day putting it to use in casting but I sat on my hands because of just not having the setup and have no idea what happened to it. I'm wondering if that was a mistake. Is lead pretty expensive? I got the impression that it was basically a giveaway priced item, could have thrown out $25-$50 as an offer and probably would have got it. Should have.

I’m getting into casting. From what I have seen the going rate for scrap lead is all over the place but you could stick a value on it for about a dollar a pound, plus shipping so roughly 1.50 per pound. Ingots that are ready to cast can be had for any amount of money that you want to pay starting at about $2 a pound if you are willing to buy in bulk. Buying in business type bulk quantity I would expect pricing to be roughly in the scrap lead range plus a bit for folks to melt it and flux it. It’s not cheap anymore, and wheelweights are moving further away from lead. Houses with lead pipes are fewer and further between and almost all of the lead window counterweights are a thing of the past. Supply is diminishing, and demand is growing for what supply is left.

 

[Telekinesis]

I don't go by the BS of some here who put out a fake definition of price gouging. There is a clear definition and its going on in ammo and guns right now.

Everyone is wanting to get in on the gouging so IMO everyone in the supply line is causing it.

Anyone who says its capitalism is an out of touch ignorant person. We can not live under a Laissez-Fjaire Capitalism the Gov would let company's have monopoly's, let them do what ever it is they want.

Just because a retailer sells a product at a price that you don't like, or a price that is higher than other sellers, doesn't mean that it's automatically price gouging. In fact, neither of the definitions you linked to are valid from either an economic or legal perspective.

It's a shame that some people refuse to understand economics and then call others "out of touch" and "ignorant". And have you ever tried to start a manufacturing FFL? We're a LONG way from Laissez-Faire Capitalism. But your argument isn't about Laissez-Faire Capitalism, or even about Keynesian vs Austrian economics. Both schools of thought recognize the same basic economic principles, they only differ (generally speaking) in what should be done about it. In short, they don't define what market actions are, they say "we see this in the market, what should we do about it?"

By saying the current market is the result of price gouging, you are implying that what is happening in the market is (or should be) illegal. Is that what you really want? Considering the entire market has increased in price, you would be saying that everyone selling a product at a price above what you deem acceptable should be punished by the government. Seems like a great idea....




Actual price gouging is typically dependent on an artificially restricted market, and usually for a relatively short time duration. This is mostly seen during events like natural disasters where supply is fixed in the short term (basically to just the supply which is on-hand locally at the time of the event) and the number of sellers is also fixed due to either time (the buyer needs something immediately and can't wait for something to be shipped) or other impediments (shipments from sellers outside the immediate area are physically unable to deliver products to the buyer).

Legally, there is generally also a requirement that the product is necessary for life or safety, so things like water, food, transportation, etc.

Our current ammo situation doesn't meet any of these requirements. First, as much as we might not like to admit it, availability of ammo for purchase is not an immediate life or safety issue. Lots of people go through life without ammo, but water and food are absolute necessities. For the gas example, running generators for a hospital, or fueling the chainsaw to clear a path for emergency response are both things that can affect immediate life and death situations.

Additionally, we are not in an artificially constrained market. We have not been limited to only a few select sellers (for instance, only being allowed to purchase from physical locations within some radius of your location) and you can purchase ammo from practically anywhere in the country over the internet.

The fact that this issue affects the entire market nation wide is evidence that this is a general shift in the supply and demand curves for the market and not individual retailers price gouging. In short (in the absence of large scale collusion) if everybody is doing it, it's market forces not price gouging.

If it were not why is it when I do see Walmart or Orchlans get ammo in they are the same price they were this time last year? Its because the manufactures are not gouging.

No, it's because large retailers don't buy individual shipments. They sign a contract with a distributor (or in some cases a manufacturer) under a model of "X number of rounds of Y type of ammo, delivered each week for Z months". This lets them negotiate a better price which allows the store to sell at a lower price and/or improve their Profit & Loss statements while also ensuring a consistent supply without fluctuations in either quantity or price. This is also a good deal for the producer (either the distributor or manufacturer) because while they may not be making quite as much revenue on each round sold, they are covering costs/making a profit while also ensuring that they have a set minimum level of demand every month which improves their cash flow position. For a producer knowing that they are guaranteed to sell some amount of product every month is a very powerful thing.

What this means for an individual purchasing from one of these retailers is that the retailer is less sensitive to price fluctuations in the market and can therefore avoid having to make changes to the sale price of their good. These agreements are smart for both parties, but they also mean that the price has been effectively insulated from the market conditions of supply and demand (at least in the short term until the contract expires).

These manufacturers know that they could breach the contract and sell that ammo to someone else at a higher price, but have determined that maintaining the long term relationship defined by the contract is more important than the short term additional revenue.

 

[dogtown tom]

I will not debate this with anyone. You CANNOT sell the the same good at the different prices into a marketplace. Restraint of Trade.

It's not really a debate as much as people pointing out that you are factually incorrect.

 

[dogtown tom]

Total BS. If you did not prepare for a disaster you deserve the consequences. What archaic rock did you climb out from under? You must be an Atheist and believer in survival of the fittest. Let me guess you go to church on Sunday and call yourself a Christian. LMAO

When you resort to this response, you know you already lost the argument.
Congratulations.

 

[dogtown tom]

The simple fact is that there is a lot of gouging going on. At every level. Only the big stores like Midway, Cabelas, Walmart [what ammo they do sell any more] and others who don't make money off of one item are not gouging. The mom and pop stores presonally I don't shop at any way. They are high day in and day out just because they are so small. And by mom and pop I man that small local GS down the road that has a few boxes of any one ammo at any one time. Not SG or some of the bigger bulk sellers. Mom and Pop shops don't hold any value for me and never will. The only reason I would stop in is to see if they ran across something that is a good buy. I. E. Grandma died and the grand kids brought in dads luger. Most times the local shops will act like they have gold but once in a while they miss something. I have not went to a gun show or Mom and Pop shop in years. Its just a waste of time. When I can get it cheaper on line. Not my job to give my money to someone local just so they can stay in business.

Keep posting. Its entertaining.

 

[aaronu]

Needs to be a third option on the poll, something on the order of "both" or "some yes, some no".

Went to a gun show. A guy had stacks of Herter's 9mm range ammo, 100 round boxes. $100 each. Right before the pandemic I bought the same stuff from my local Cabelas for $17 per box. In fact, I am still shooting that stuff up. That seller is going to Cabela's (likely the same one), buying product at retail, then marking it up. Dramatically. Seems like gouging to me. If you don't like the term "gouging" then call it scalping.

For the record at the time of the gun show (mid December) I could get 9mm from Midway for 60 cents a round. In Washington that comes to .69 per round after tax and shipping.



That is way worse than 17-25 cents a round from Cabelas but it seems to be most of the current market.

Or I could buy from one of several scalpers at the gun show or get ammo at "Cheaper than Dirt" prices from an unfortunately mis-named online scalper.



Some of the "Dollar a round" guys at the gun show loudly suggested that folks best buy all we could afford while it was cheap, because by next year two dollars a round would be the new normal. So I guess CTD must be ahead of the curve? I shudder to think.

An older gentleman at the same gun show had boxes of ammo for very reasonable prices. He sold out of the popular stuff every day, and once he did so then the scalpers would start to make sales. I asked him about things and he said he wasn't interested in scalping people. He charged what he thought was fair and that was that. For the record he was selling .357 magnum for less than $20 a box. I picked up a 50 round box of 25-20 for $40, which is the cheapest I've found it in several years (a year ago new stuff was $55-$60 per 50). He also had a box of .38 Long Colt for $18 but I was out of cash by then. Same price for .38 Special but I have plenty of that. But I am always on the lookout for 25-20 brass.

Price gouging definition, an act or instance of charging customers too high a price for goods or services, especially when demand is high and supplies are limited:
The law prohibits price gouging during weather emergencies such as snowstorms.

Then again price gouging is usually in the context of essential goods or services, and during an event that alters supply and/or demand:

Price gouging occurs when a seller increases the prices of goods, services or commodities to a level much higher than is considered reasonable or fair. Usually, this event occurs after a demand or supply shock. Common examples include price increases of basic necessities after natural disasters. In precise, legal usage, it is the name of a crime that applies in some jurisdictions of the United States during civil emergencies. In less precise usage, it can refer either to prices obtained by practices inconsistent with a competitive free market or to windfall profits. Price gouging may be considered exploitative and unethical.

So perhaps whether or not the ammo prices are legitimate or gouging depends on whether one considers firearms and their use to be essential. My opinion is that it is essential. That is why it is protected by the Bill of Rights, just like our essential right to peaceably assemble, practice religion, et cetera. Some agree, such as Texas AG Ken Paxton, who went after Cheaper Than Dirt. Some disagree, which is why the sheriff of Los Angeles County, Alex Villaneuva, ordered LA gun stores to close last March.

What makes firearms essential?

• Defense of self and family
• Subsistence hunting
• Livestock management
• Wildlife management (track down a bear after an attack on a person, rabid animals etc.)
• Pest control
• ... and although it isn't as applicable these days with all our uniformed LE around, informal militias such as posses

Although I've never been part of a sheriff's posse I've certainly had need of a firearm for each of the first 5 bullet points. Firearms sure seemed essential then. Anyone who is awakened at 2:00 AM by the sound of breaking glass would likely agree.

So my opinion is that it is both market correction and price gouging. And it is some of each. COVID (and government response to same) is messing with the supply chain and various social pressures are increasing demand. There is bound to be a price increase, and some retailers are doing what they must. But at the same time, there are folks more than happy to take advantage of a bad situation and exploit people.

I will grit my teeth and buy from what I see as reasonable price response from honorable sellers, either by haunting places like Cabela's on restock days or by buying online from places like Midway. But I will not buy from the obvious scalpers.

 

[George P]

Depending on what his table at that show cost, he might be making a few bucks or he might not.

 

[MachIVshooter]

Both, when gouging occurs, because they ALL are paying more also. But not all of them are gouging, simply adding their cost on. $100 for a box of 9mm? That's gouging. Ammo at my LGS has gone up slightly. He limits sales to one box (or one flat of shotgun shells) per person per day.

This.

Dealer/retailer wholesale costs are up, so they have to charge more to maintain profit margins. Of course some are also taking advantage, and a few are gouging insofar as the term applies to what is really a luxury commodity (we're not talking essentials like milk, bread or gasoline here, so "gouging" and "profiteering" are terms that should be applied loosely)

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

I think I don't care if they're uncharging or not. Not enough to get upset, anyway.

You know what happens when they upcharge during a shortage?

They tend to have some stock on hand whenever I need it, that's what happens.

You know what I don't do when they upcharge?

I don't buy a ton of excess, that's what.

The places that don't "upcharge" during shortages end up with bare shelves. You know what I can't do at places with bare ammo shelves?

I can't buy ammo, that's what.

 

[dogtown tom]

......So perhaps whether or not the ammo prices are legitimate or gouging depends on whether one considers firearms and their use to be essential. My opinion is that it is essential. That is why it is protected by the Bill of Rights, just like our essential right to peaceably assemble, practice religion, et cetera. Some agree, such as Texas AG Ken Paxton, who went after Cheaper Than Dirt.....

Despite the headlines, Ken "I'm not a felon yet" Paxton DID NOT "go after" Cheaper Than Dirt for "gouging" but for other business practices.....namely their website changing the price of items when they were added to their cart at checkout. That's illegal.
https://www.statesman.com/story/news/2020/12/16/gun-website-price-gouging-pandemic/3932523001/