And we have a winner. MK11 said it all. A "combat mindset". Do you have that? Most of the time we talk about the legal ramifications and tactics we would employ but a lot of people will never develop the mindset. And like someone said earlier, don't underestimate your opponent.
Do you think the average gangbanger practices shooting?
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And we have a winner. MK11 said it all. A "combat mindset". Do you have that? Most of the time we talk about the legal ramifications and tactics we would employ but a lot of people will never develop the mindset. And like someone said earlier, don't underestimate your opponent.
bigfatdave
Member
Or in the car.
Or at home, because "carrying too much hassle" or because "I'm not going into the ghetto today"
makarovnik
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Many get good training in the Armed Forces then go home to use their new found expertise.
BURN
Member
not as many as some seem to think
inherentical
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BURN said:
I'd bet fewer than a couple dozen million.
Hold My Own
Member
I can't remember where I read it, but it was maybe in '07? But there were reported numbers in the mid hundreds of thousands mainly in the Chicago/L.A. area. There was a story about some guy who was a Blood member who was getting jumped in on a Military base and died during the process.
But on to my real post. Growing up in Detroit, I doubt many gang bangers ever got to the actual range like you or I would, but I recall coming across more than a few alleys, or maybe lots or things of that nature with targets riddled with bullet holes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_B_cftY0WvE&feature=related
I don't wanna start a whole "I hate Rap" thing because that won't get us anywhere. I for one grew up on it and still love it, but we can all agree that this video and the captions have ignorance written all over it. Don't watch it in front of your children. There's some words you might not want them to her.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVAhw2Tn7OA
Standing on a hot range??? (Three part video. Parts 2 and 3 are in related links, fyi.)
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I'd say that even if a gangbanger practices, he likely doesn't clean his firearm too frequently, which would certainly contribute to jams like in this case.
I like CNN's story: "Police found a business card for a gun dealer on the victim, Browne said. On the back of the card was a handwritten note saying, "I feel sorry for a cop who thinks I'm getting into his paddy wagon.""
http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/12/10/new.york.broadway.shooting/index.html
On the radio today I heard the reporter say the shooter had a "machine pistol" that "held 28 rounds and was semi-automatic". I love educated reporters!
I've also heard that the Peddler Unit of the NYPD is about at the bottom of the barrel...yet they still seem to have performed splendidly.
I like CNN's story: "Police found a business card for a gun dealer on the victim, Browne said. On the back of the card was a handwritten note saying, "I feel sorry for a cop who thinks I'm getting into his paddy wagon.""
http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/12/10/new.york.broadway.shooting/index.html
On the radio today I heard the reporter say the shooter had a "machine pistol" that "held 28 rounds and was semi-automatic". I love educated reporters!
I've also heard that the Peddler Unit of the NYPD is about at the bottom of the barrel...yet they still seem to have performed splendidly.
22-rimfire
Member
My understanding is that many criminals have a personal survival mindset and are willing to be the aggressor and have little respect for human life. It is a win win for them. The average gun owner would never know what hit them. You don't have to be very good. I have read that many gang members practice extensively with their firearms. This is not to be confused with people just looking for enough money for their next fix.
Gangbangers get range time. You just need to go to the right range to see it. And for all the "practice" they get, the ones I see still couldn't hit the side of a barn from the inside.
Also, I work basically in between two rough cities. They come in and they wear colors. Handing them anything besides a Glock and watching their confused espressions is hilarious.
A few weeks ago a (possible) banger was looking at guns, and I handed him a 1911. He was holding it out sideways, acting like he was looking through the sights, with the muzzle pointed straight at my chest. I kept telling him to point it in a safe direction, and he kept pointing it at me again and again. When I told him to get his finger off the trigger, he moved it away and replaced it with his middle finger. Seriously.
Also, I work basically in between two rough cities. They come in and they wear colors. Handing them anything besides a Glock and watching their confused espressions is hilarious.
A few weeks ago a (possible) banger was looking at guns, and I handed him a 1911. He was holding it out sideways, acting like he was looking through the sights, with the muzzle pointed straight at my chest. I kept telling him to point it in a safe direction, and he kept pointing it at me again and again. When I told him to get his finger off the trigger, he moved it away and replaced it with his middle finger. Seriously.
John Wayne
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They probably don't need to: proximity negates skill.
Cleaning is also a non-issue. Quality firearms shoot even when dirty. Junk guns don't function well regardless of whether they're dirty or clean.
Cleaning is also a non-issue. Quality firearms shoot even when dirty. Junk guns don't function well regardless of whether they're dirty or clean.
I disagree. I have two otherwise flawless guns I left in a humid environment for too long that jammed repeatedly the next time I took them out because the action had rust in it. I cleaned and lubed them, and they are back to working flawlessly. Taking care of a good firearm is part of keeping it a good firearm, unless it is a complete rattletrap like an AK. Carrying guns IWB with no holster makes them VERY rusty in just a day or two. I have seen this first hand.
John Wayne
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Pb, I was thinking dirty in the sense of firing residue. I meant it as a seperate distinction from rusty. I understand that carry guns are prone to surface rust, especially if carried without a holster, but I still think it would take a long time for rust to get into the action.
jfdavis58
Member
On the other Highroad forum someone asked about strange range happenings and I offer the following true story. I realize you have nothing but my word as to it's truth, but...
I'm a member of a private range club and shooting is self regulated, and allowed 24/7/365. More years ago than I will count near sundown, I was shooting with my brother in an IPSC/USPSA/IDPA specific area when we noticed an unusual number of dirt puffs coming up from ground behind us. We stopped our shooting to observe and taking out our ear plugs we could hear the reports of the shots shortly after we saw the dirt jumping. It was coming in waves of 20-40 shots each wave from over our heads downrange!
We gathered our equipment, waited till a wave of rounds struck and then charged out of the area for a better position.
Down range, up an a road crossing the ridge we use as a backstop, a group of gang bangers had breached a fence and set up some drive-by shooting practice. They effectively had the 'high ground' and seemingly didn't notice the shooting range below them. They continued for about an hour, driving by a collection of boxes and firing as they passed. Their rounds passing through and dropping all along our ranges primary firing lines and across our path of retreat.
Cell phones were still something of an expensive toy back then (even today one must be in proper position to catch a tower) but I did have a scoped 270 rifle in the truck. They apparently didn't hear the first shot but the sudden flat tire did give them pause. While they gathered around the flat on the rear of one of their cars I sent another message into the driver-side exterior mirror. I distinctly remember one fellow jumping up so hard his pants fell down. Shifting my sights to an empty vehicle with lights on, I sent two rounds in rapid succession and made it suddenly very dark up on that part of the hill.
Some of their number saw the last two muzzle flashes and that was the seal on the deal--a 270 at night spews quite the light-show. Like cock roaches they scattered, most eventually mounting their vehicles and all roared off.
Luck continued on my side as the local police were working an event just down from where the gang needed to rejoin the paved road. They were so rattled they sped onto the road at full throttle right into the arms of the cops doing traffic.
Several weeks after the incident another member, a local cop, stopped me on the way into the range and stated that I should "watch out for gangs shooting into the range from up on the hill". He went on to tell me that they had apprehended a large group of gang members returning from their gun practice claiming they had been fired upon by a large number of unknown gunman a couple weeks earlier. The cops had 'investigated', but could find nothing believable about their story.
I know what happened. This may have been one chance encounter or it may have been a regular pattern for the thugs up on the hill. Less than a month before the stories occurrence, the range was dark at night. My brother and I were part of a group pushing for electricity to be brought in. We ran late evening and night practice sessions for several years after the event.
Judging from the number of shot-up signs, junk-piles, abandoned, shot-up and torched vehicles littering the desert, ditches and other landscape surrounding Albuquerque SOMEBODY is doing something. Law abiding citizens know the un-incorporated areas (the county) has been off limits to shooting for more than a decade-most follow the law and join a range (hence the title "law abiding").
Is this effective practice? Is it training? Maybe not as we see things from the defensive shooter point of view---but then we don't usually ambush our adversaries, do we?!?!
This particular crew was alleged to have a grandmother at the top of it's command structure. She was thought to be very weapon knowledgeable and ruled with a para-military style.
I'm a member of a private range club and shooting is self regulated, and allowed 24/7/365. More years ago than I will count near sundown, I was shooting with my brother in an IPSC/USPSA/IDPA specific area when we noticed an unusual number of dirt puffs coming up from ground behind us. We stopped our shooting to observe and taking out our ear plugs we could hear the reports of the shots shortly after we saw the dirt jumping. It was coming in waves of 20-40 shots each wave from over our heads downrange!
We gathered our equipment, waited till a wave of rounds struck and then charged out of the area for a better position.
Down range, up an a road crossing the ridge we use as a backstop, a group of gang bangers had breached a fence and set up some drive-by shooting practice. They effectively had the 'high ground' and seemingly didn't notice the shooting range below them. They continued for about an hour, driving by a collection of boxes and firing as they passed. Their rounds passing through and dropping all along our ranges primary firing lines and across our path of retreat.
Cell phones were still something of an expensive toy back then (even today one must be in proper position to catch a tower) but I did have a scoped 270 rifle in the truck. They apparently didn't hear the first shot but the sudden flat tire did give them pause. While they gathered around the flat on the rear of one of their cars I sent another message into the driver-side exterior mirror. I distinctly remember one fellow jumping up so hard his pants fell down. Shifting my sights to an empty vehicle with lights on, I sent two rounds in rapid succession and made it suddenly very dark up on that part of the hill.
Some of their number saw the last two muzzle flashes and that was the seal on the deal--a 270 at night spews quite the light-show. Like cock roaches they scattered, most eventually mounting their vehicles and all roared off.
Luck continued on my side as the local police were working an event just down from where the gang needed to rejoin the paved road. They were so rattled they sped onto the road at full throttle right into the arms of the cops doing traffic.
Several weeks after the incident another member, a local cop, stopped me on the way into the range and stated that I should "watch out for gangs shooting into the range from up on the hill". He went on to tell me that they had apprehended a large group of gang members returning from their gun practice claiming they had been fired upon by a large number of unknown gunman a couple weeks earlier. The cops had 'investigated', but could find nothing believable about their story.
I know what happened. This may have been one chance encounter or it may have been a regular pattern for the thugs up on the hill. Less than a month before the stories occurrence, the range was dark at night. My brother and I were part of a group pushing for electricity to be brought in. We ran late evening and night practice sessions for several years after the event.
Judging from the number of shot-up signs, junk-piles, abandoned, shot-up and torched vehicles littering the desert, ditches and other landscape surrounding Albuquerque SOMEBODY is doing something. Law abiding citizens know the un-incorporated areas (the county) has been off limits to shooting for more than a decade-most follow the law and join a range (hence the title "law abiding").
Is this effective practice? Is it training? Maybe not as we see things from the defensive shooter point of view---but then we don't usually ambush our adversaries, do we?!?!
This particular crew was alleged to have a grandmother at the top of it's command structure. She was thought to be very weapon knowledgeable and ruled with a para-military style.
jahwarrior
Member
i think a lot of you'd be surprised at how much some gangstas DO practice. i'm not talking about some 15 year old punk kid who stole his uncle's gun, i mean career criminals, who've probably been hardened by some prison time, and already have a murder or two under their belts. i grew up in a neighborhood full of those guys, some of them kids i grew up with. it wasn't unusual to hear gunfire at old adanboned lots, inside burnt out buildings, or down by water, under the Whitestone Bridge on the Bronx side.
another thing to think about is this: there are quite a few criminals who have served in our military. many might have been discharged for any number of reasons, some may have served in combat. either way, these men have military training. there are stories where a few have gone back to the ghettos they were raised in, and back to the life they led before they were soldiers. it's a sad thing to think about, but it does happen. now, how many of them do think would apply their training to criminal activity? most, i think. one of my father's friends, who served with him in Vietnam, is an example of this. when he came home, he went back to the old neighborhood, and fell in with his old crew. he went on to be a higher ranking member in a violent hispanic gang, mostly because he could train the other hitters to shoot, and use military tactics to execute hits on rival gangs.
lastly, i think divemedic hit on the head :under no circumstances should you ever underestimate an armed opponent. no matter if he's a 18 year old punk kid, or an Army Ranger, i'm going to treat him the same: a deadly threat.
another thing to think about is this: there are quite a few criminals who have served in our military. many might have been discharged for any number of reasons, some may have served in combat. either way, these men have military training. there are stories where a few have gone back to the ghettos they were raised in, and back to the life they led before they were soldiers. it's a sad thing to think about, but it does happen. now, how many of them do think would apply their training to criminal activity? most, i think. one of my father's friends, who served with him in Vietnam, is an example of this. when he came home, he went back to the old neighborhood, and fell in with his old crew. he went on to be a higher ranking member in a violent hispanic gang, mostly because he could train the other hitters to shoot, and use military tactics to execute hits on rival gangs.
lastly, i think divemedic hit on the head :under no circumstances should you ever underestimate an armed opponent. no matter if he's a 18 year old punk kid, or an Army Ranger, i'm going to treat him the same: a deadly threat.
bigfatdave
Member
rondog. that looks like fun on a bun!
I'll supply indoor range time and a rolling cart if someone nearby has a car door to donate, we can take turns!
I'll supply indoor range time and a rolling cart if someone nearby has a car door to donate, we can take turns!
fireflyfather
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Some of the gangs deliberately have their people enlist for this reason. Kind of a problem in the military right now according to some.
As for my personal experiences with gangbangers (I teach in an urban southern California high school, and have had students arrested for drive-by's and the like) and other kids their age, they know VERY little about firearms, and don't seem particularly interested in learning more than what they can find out from the newest video game. The topic has come up in a few all-class and small group discussions, plus a few debates (They brought it up, via their lessons on the bill of rights in their civics class), and nothing leads me to believe that they practice any oftener than most city-dwellers practice splitting firewood.
Boris Barowski
Member
I have very limited knowledge about gangs, but I imagine the average drug dealer/banger doesn't have that much practice under his belt. I think the older, more experienced "enforcers" do practice. But that's just what I think, no empirical data to support this 
Kalashnikovkid
Member
I'm not quite sure I understand what your videos are trying to prove, Hold My Own. From the looks of things, we were discussing the shooting abilities of gangbangers/common hoods, and the people you chose to post in your videos don't seem to fit the description. I'll go out on a limb here and say that I doubt that the majority of THR's membership doesn't know exactly who these people are, but the men in all of your posts are rappers, not 3-time convicted Crip gangbangers. Sure, the stuff they're doing seems a little ignorant and a bit green( lol "busting the nina"), but I think it's a bit of a stretch(and I will say skirting the line as profiling...) to go out on a limb and lump them in with criminal gangbangers.The lyrics they rap about ("yeah I'm fully loaded...) may reflect a gangbanging lifestyle, but the people behind the song may not be what you think. Just trying to keep things high-road here...
NMGonzo
Member
yup
handguns are a whole different thing
In 50 rounds with a .22 my gf can hit a silhouette @ 15 meters just by bringing the weapon up and firing without much aiming.
Every time.
She does just as well with a .380
She never fired or touched a gun in her entire life.
It's not that one needs to make a sub inch group with a snubby .44 magnum @ 100 METERS.
The disregard for the consequences, as mentioned by posters before me, in addition with minimal skill is what MOST LIKELY makes a successful shootout for the bad guys.
My GF can a torso sized target @ combat distance and beyond; gangbangers can too.
I see a lot of people underestimating the enemy ....
iiibdsiil
Member
The colors thing doesn't have to be a gang thing. They just want to match.
Also, something to think about is my friends that live in/near DC. Young black males, under 26, wear baggie clothes, "colors", and pursue a life of rapping. These are the same guys that hold full time jobs (decent ones at that) and are definitely not troublemakers. They also carry a gun around most of the time because "You have to around here."
Roccobro
Member
Ex-military and killed cops. Definitely used military training.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4b_R3NLARFo
Justin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4b_R3NLARFo
Justin
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