Well, I may be wrong - I was wrong once before but that was decades ago - but here are my thoughts on the .380. I have a .380 and a 7.65 PPK/S & PPK. I like both and carry them a lot when I decide to carry. Anything above a .22LR, and maybe the .25 acp, is well into the serious "don't shoot me" realm. Any lightweight in the pocket beats a heavyweight in the gun safe. Now; many things, including winter/heavy/leather coats and such will take a lot of starch out of most of the rounds mentioned in this thread. The most important role the bullet has is to get well into the target and not stop just outside of or only shallowly penetrate said target. HPs open up and do quite well as long as they get to where they're needed. Thicker clothing can plug HPs thus turning them into solids. This problem seldom occurs in the warm seasons but is often the rule in cooler climes. For this and a few other reasons I trust fmj ("solid") bullets for calibers up to and including the .380. Remember, rule #1 says "it has to get to the destination intact"; rule #2 says "go back to rule # 1". The .380 and .7.65 both have my confidence.
Do You Think This .380 Round Is Sufficient For Self-Defense?
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Mosin77
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Nobody will say this round is ideal. However, it’s also a lot better than harsh words or a sharp stick, and for realistic threats (no you won’t be able to hold off an entire baseball team worth of gang-bangers in an extended shootout) it will probably do the job just fine. Plenty of penetration, maybe more damage than FMJ, and no more over penetration than any regular missed shot, which is a factor often forgotten anyway.
Make sure it feeds reliably in your gun and shoots to point of aim at realistic (7-15 yards) legal self defense distances.
Make sure it feeds reliably in your gun and shoots to point of aim at realistic (7-15 yards) legal self defense distances.
fxvr5
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?
That would be any distance given the circumstances in which you need to defend yourself.
Idk if you saw original post, but I have a Glock 42.
A .380 Glock 43 is almost literally the G42. G42 is ridiculously shootable as it has almost no recoil, as it's a "larger" sized .380 (3.25" barrel, 1 LB fully loaded). I agree with you that the micro .380's, usually meant as a pocket option, can be snappy. Can add a +2 mag for 8+1 of .380
Hangingrock
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Simply said I do not own or have a use for a handgun chambered in 380 ACP. My EDC is a S&W Shield 9X19MM.
wcwhitey
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Lint cleaning day! If you see me it is in my pocket. I have yet to find a more reliable little gun that guarantees I meet the first rule, have a gun. Is it the hammer of Thor, nope but it works and it has what I consider a decent level of stopping power. There are better calibers but hard to beat the combination of compactness and power. If we meet on the beach, I am probably the only one armed. Situations vary and so do my choices but I always have this little guy with me.
My minimum carry is a Glock 23 (wherever/whenever), alternatively a Glock 20SF or 35 are frequent.
I'm not getting in the sharks food bowl, so what I normally carry is what goes on the short walk to the beach.
On this day it was the 20SF.
I plan to do exact same. I will at the very least always have an LCP 2 .380 in the pocket, and most likely a G42 appendix as well, meaning I can easily have 2 guns on me at all times.
I consider my 9 Shield my primary option, but realistically it's about this time of year my LCP starts getting the most use until fall hits. It's just a lot easier to carry it in summer attire and without that option, I'd often have nothing just from a convenience standpoint.
wcwhitey
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We need to start a summertime carry thread.
I'm not sure what you mean by "realistic" but the fruit medley that Paul Harrell has concocted undoubtedly produces less statistically reliable results.
Just wanted to chime in, my first pistol was a 380. Bersa thunder. My best friend had a lot of land complete with "shootin car".
Using cheapest fmj (magtech or Remington) 380 from 7-10 yards had no problems going through one car door and out the other. Made Swiss cheese of it. Right through auto glass as well.
Just random internet guys experience, but from a variety of vantage points points and a really fun time for a couple of 21 year olds, 380 ball will "keel" .
Rexter, just happened on the 22 magnum thread and noticed this:
"The most recent time I thought that I might need to defend myself, the attacker was a road rager, inside a Mercedes sedan. How does .22 WMR do, against auto glass and auto body metal? (My sin was to fail to get out of his way, when he did not have the right-of-way, and I followed my usual procedure of de-escalation and avoidance.)
How would .22 WMR do, in the through-arm-and-cross-torso type of shot fired by FBI Agent Dove, against the felon Michal Platt? This would not be a typical self-defense shot, but could well be relevant when defending a third person, such as a family member.
Any cartridge is enough, until it isn’t. A duty-type cartridge provides we with more options than does a less-powerful cartridge"
Pardon my assumption, but this appears as a verbatim post with "22 wmr" replacing "380" as the "limited" caliber you were carrying when accosted by an angry Mercedes driver...
"The most recent time I thought that I might need to defend myself, the attacker was a road rager, inside a Mercedes sedan. How does .22 WMR do, against auto glass and auto body metal? (My sin was to fail to get out of his way, when he did not have the right-of-way, and I followed my usual procedure of de-escalation and avoidance.)
How would .22 WMR do, in the through-arm-and-cross-torso type of shot fired by FBI Agent Dove, against the felon Michal Platt? This would not be a typical self-defense shot, but could well be relevant when defending a third person, such as a family member.
Any cartridge is enough, until it isn’t. A duty-type cartridge provides we with more options than does a less-powerful cartridge"
Pardon my assumption, but this appears as a verbatim post with "22 wmr" replacing "380" as the "limited" caliber you were carrying when accosted by an angry Mercedes driver...
The event, itself, was simply an example of why one may want to have a firearm chambered for a duty-type cartridge. I was carrying neither .22 WMR nor .380 ACP, at the time. I do not own a firearm that shoots .22 WMR, and as for .380 ACP, my PPK/s has not proven to be reliable, and my Glock G42 has yet to fired enough to verify reliability.
Absolutely!
Or reasonably close thereto.
For whatever reason, LEO and military handgun training was at one time conducted at seven yards.
A little under four decades ago, Cpl. Dennis Tueller showed that a reasonably fit person can cover th distance it takes to draw a handgun from an open carry holster and fire one shot. That distance averages out at twenty-one feet. The gist was that an attacker standing that far way could pose an immediate danger to a police officer if he were to draw a contact weapon and attack. There is nothing legally binding about that distance.
Now, for whatever reason, one sees many people at shooting ranges practicing shooing slowly at targets seven yards away.
Actually, an attacker who starts at a distance of seven yards can be on top pf defender brfore the defender would be able to shoot one shot, and a one shot stop would be rare indeed.
A concealed carrier should learn to draw very rapidly while moving off line, and to choot several shots very rapidly. Distances may be as close as two to four yards.
There are those who will carry a .380. I'm not one of them.
Rexster,
I appreciate that you took the time to respond and to clarify that. I would suggest you inform them on the 22 mag thread, as you had many posters responding and taking this story as a real life event that happened (it is certainly how I took it).
I understand your point, I would personally appreciate the input phrased as mentioning the Miami shoot out or questions regarding penetration through vehicle barriers stated as hypothetical situations for consideration vs real life lived experience just because some people may absorb that information differently.
Again, appreciate the honesty and response. It is the high road on both accounts.
JTHunter
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Over 40 years ago, I traded a Ruger .22LR SA pistol for an Astra .380. Not exactly a mistake but I still miss that Ruger. In the late 80s, I started reloading for the .380 with one of the Lee hand kits and I learned to "modify" some of the bullets in the hopes of increasing their effectiveness. The 90 gr. JHPs I was reloading were modified in 2 ways - the bullet was placed on its base on a hard surface and a razor knife was placed over the cavity and tapped with a small hammer to create fissures at 4 points in a "+" sign. Then the jacket material below those cuts were lightly scored downwards about halfway to the base. It is my expectation that this will allow the HP round to mushroom more readily and dump that kinetic energy in the target. They might even fragment and create multiple wound channels.
Only about a dozen rounds were made like that and they would be the first 3 rounds fired from this gun. The next 4 rounds would be 2 pairs, 2 - 95 gr. SJFP and 2 - 100 gr. FMJRN.
Only about a dozen rounds were made like that and they would be the first 3 rounds fired from this gun. The next 4 rounds would be 2 pairs, 2 - 95 gr. SJFP and 2 - 100 gr. FMJRN.
As Dirty Harry said, "a man's got to know his limitations".
The 380 ACP can be a good defensive round but it does not have same capability as other, more powerful rounds. If one keeps the capability of 380 ACP in mind, it will serve the user well.
Of course, a hit with a 380 ACP will trump a miss with anything else.
The 380 ACP can be a good defensive round but it does not have same capability as other, more powerful rounds. If one keeps the capability of 380 ACP in mind, it will serve the user well.
Of course, a hit with a 380 ACP will trump a miss with anything else.
fastbolt
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There's usually a reason that many LE agencies who regulate caliber of secondary and off-duty weapons have set the lowest bar at .380ACP. It's pretty much at the lowest rung of the marginally adequate ladder. Is it lethal? Of course. The .380ACP has killed a lot of people. So has .22LR, comes to that. Like many cops, I've seen the results of houses and people getting hit with .380 rounds. It still wouldn't be my choice for a primary duty caliber, but it still offers some potential value as an optional secondary/off-duty choice.
Anyway, I stopped being interested in (and carrying) a .380 back when I had an unpleasant experience with a finicky Beretta double stack .380 in the 80's. It wouldn't reliably feed Ball, even with new springs and being carefully cleaned and lubed. Then, there were all the guys and gals who often brought their little Walther .380's to the range, and it was always a coin toss whether they'd make it through a course of fire without stoppages. Since there were 9mm's that weren't that much larger than the Beretta (like the M469), I let go of the .380 and didn't pay attention to the caliber for more than 20 years.
Then, one day I decided to try a friend's LCP. He was another retired LE firearms trainer I'd known for some decades, and he was a serious shooting enthusiast. (Hadf his own mountain range, and I'd often seen him carrying at least 2 guns, if not 3 of them.) I'd seen some LCP's come through our range and they seemed pretty decent for reliability. It fit in pockets (holstered) where I couldn't put my J-frames. Handy. Turned out to be surprisingly accurate, as well as reliable with an assortment of JHP loads. I bought one from my local cop shop. I had to call Ruger to replace the takedown pin in that first LCP (it walked), and the replacement pin solved the issue. (An interim aftermarket anti-walk pin I bought to try, out of curiosity, also rotated and walked under recoil.
)
My second LCP (added a stainless slide version with the new sights and trigger geometry) just perked right along. Liked any JHP or ball I tried (made by major American ammo makers). It was just as easy to run it through qual courses-of-fire as my J's. However, once the distances moved out beyond 20yds, like to 30-50yds, the J-frames were easier to use to get hits on the paper and steel silhouettes. No biggie, since I didn't plan to carry the LCP's in anticipation of "engaging threats" at those longer (handgun) ranges, anyway.
So, while I'm not particularly enthused about the caliber, I do like how the diminutive size of the LCP gives me some options for carry when short and tight pockets rule out my J-frames.
Folks have a LOT of options nowadays that weren't available to us a few decades ago. Not a bad thing.
Anyway, I stopped being interested in (and carrying) a .380 back when I had an unpleasant experience with a finicky Beretta double stack .380 in the 80's. It wouldn't reliably feed Ball, even with new springs and being carefully cleaned and lubed. Then, there were all the guys and gals who often brought their little Walther .380's to the range, and it was always a coin toss whether they'd make it through a course of fire without stoppages. Since there were 9mm's that weren't that much larger than the Beretta (like the M469), I let go of the .380 and didn't pay attention to the caliber for more than 20 years.
Then, one day I decided to try a friend's LCP. He was another retired LE firearms trainer I'd known for some decades, and he was a serious shooting enthusiast. (Hadf his own mountain range, and I'd often seen him carrying at least 2 guns, if not 3 of them.) I'd seen some LCP's come through our range and they seemed pretty decent for reliability. It fit in pockets (holstered) where I couldn't put my J-frames. Handy. Turned out to be surprisingly accurate, as well as reliable with an assortment of JHP loads. I bought one from my local cop shop. I had to call Ruger to replace the takedown pin in that first LCP (it walked), and the replacement pin solved the issue. (An interim aftermarket anti-walk pin I bought to try, out of curiosity, also rotated and walked under recoil.
) My second LCP (added a stainless slide version with the new sights and trigger geometry) just perked right along. Liked any JHP or ball I tried (made by major American ammo makers). It was just as easy to run it through qual courses-of-fire as my J's. However, once the distances moved out beyond 20yds, like to 30-50yds, the J-frames were easier to use to get hits on the paper and steel silhouettes. No biggie, since I didn't plan to carry the LCP's in anticipation of "engaging threats" at those longer (handgun) ranges, anyway.
So, while I'm not particularly enthused about the caliber, I do like how the diminutive size of the LCP gives me some options for carry when short and tight pockets rule out my J-frames.
Folks have a LOT of options nowadays that weren't available to us a few decades ago. Not a bad thing.
Ethan Verity
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To the OP's original question, yes I do think a 95gr FMJ will perform fine from a 380. Most JHP 380 bullets coming out of anything less than a 3" barrel seem to either fail to expand in the first place, or do expand but cause under-penetration. There simply isn't enough kinetic energy to do both, as you can get with a service cartridge. When it comes to choosing between expansion or penetration, I would choose penetration.
I carry Hornady 90gr XTP in my Ruger LCP, even though they probably won't expand (Getting just ~850fps from that short 2.75" barrel, I think the expansion threshold for them is ~900fps) and will basically just act like the FMJ flat nose bullet anyway. The only reason I bother with them over a cheap FMJ in my Ruger, is because the Hornady JHP factory loading is accurate, consistent, and has been 100% reliable through my LCP. I don't find that same level of quality put into FMJ target rounds for the most part. But yeah, in terms of the bullet's terminal performance, they are both doing the same thing.
380 in my opinion is that power threshold where both FMJ and JHP can be acceptable, depending on the barrel length. Anything above 380 power I would say only use JHP, and anything below to use only FMJ.
I carry Hornady 90gr XTP in my Ruger LCP, even though they probably won't expand (Getting just ~850fps from that short 2.75" barrel, I think the expansion threshold for them is ~900fps) and will basically just act like the FMJ flat nose bullet anyway. The only reason I bother with them over a cheap FMJ in my Ruger, is because the Hornady JHP factory loading is accurate, consistent, and has been 100% reliable through my LCP. I don't find that same level of quality put into FMJ target rounds for the most part. But yeah, in terms of the bullet's terminal performance, they are both doing the same thing.
380 in my opinion is that power threshold where both FMJ and JHP can be acceptable, depending on the barrel length. Anything above 380 power I would say only use JHP, and anything below to use only FMJ.
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