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Do you train around vehicles?

Discussion in 'Strategies, Tactics, and Training' started by ClicheBro, Nov 20, 2022.

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  1. ClicheBro

    ClicheBro member

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    Have you incorporated vehicles into your training? Do you know what to use them for? Do you know how windshields affect bullets?
     
  2. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    There are training drills that involve shooting from autos. These are rather advanced, and not many people do that.

    Windshields affect bullet paths in different ways, depending on a number of variables.

    For civilians, if it is at all possible to use the vehicle to escape, that is the preferable strategy.

    Counter-kidnapping training courses for executives include driving drills to prevent victimization. They are expensive. The beaters they use are expendable.

    Pursuit training is not needed by civilians.
     
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  3. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    I should add that realistic FoF scenarios that involve the use of simunitions can be set up to involve vehicles behind which people hide and around which people approach.
     
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  4. herrwalther

    herrwalther Member

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    Yes. With adrenaline going you would be surprised how many times your own seatbelt will grab your shooting arm in a rush until you practice around it. If you know a place where you can train in and around vehicles, I recommend it. Vehicle training should focus on avoidance and escape first. You are in a multi-ton vehicle. That can go 0-60 rather quickly to get away from a gun fight. A car is nowhere near 100% bulletproof but it is still better to be moving away from gunfire than sitting in it and fighting back. Returning fire from inside or from an exited vehicle should be a last resort. Because shooting through a windshield can be so unpredictable, most trainers will teach how to shoot out the driver's side window. Or other windows as a passenger.
     
  5. FL-NC

    FL-NC Member

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    Yes, to all 3 questions.
     
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  6. Jeff White

    Jeff White Moderator Staff Member

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    Yes, I have. I recommend it.
     
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  7. bearcreek

    bearcreek Member

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    Neither is training to shoot from inside the vehicle, or evasive driving training, until it is.
     
  8. Old Dog

    Old Dog Member

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    Yes.

    Believe it or not, this has become an important part in a lot of law enforcement weapons training for at least the last decade, and a number of the more credible civilian commercial training schools have at least got some instructors to come in to offer components of training incorporating vehicles into their curriculum. For those with military time, particularly during the early stages of OIF, many lessons were learned the hard way.
     
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  9. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    Different meaning. Civilians would benefit from defensive training.
     
  10. jmorris

    jmorris Member

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    I have been in a number of matches that incorporated vehicles into stages. As targets and shooting positions, including drawing.

    How a windshield deflects a projectile depends greatly on what it is and how fast it’s going. For example a 9mm or even 45 might not go through a door, side impact internal bracing and window glass where a 50 BMG will and blow other bits of the car out the door on the other side of the car too.
     
  11. lemaymiami

    lemaymiami Member

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    Yes, we included vehicles in our firearms training (police work) and even included high speed chases (very short) that ended up in gunplay at the stop... We also included training to recognize deliberate planned ambush scenes - how to avoid, how to retreat, and other similar tactics.. Pray, that as an ordinary citizen, you're not involved in any of that sort of action - since the good guys often don't survive it without serious harm...

    What we did not train for, that I would have approved, was serious defensive use of your vehicle when confronted by an armed assailant when your life is on the line. I can understand why no police agency would allow such training - but a vehicle is a deadly weapon in its own right and prompt aggressive action can interrupt a planned attack -then allow you to retreat in that same vehicle. I suspect that serious executive protection training probably involves some of that - but not something they talk about at all...

    Early on as a young cop I figured out on my own that my vehicle was also a weapon in an extreme situation - and was fully prepared to make use of it if necessary. I'm happy to report that I never got into any situations where it was used. I also figured out that I'd have a tough time explaining that sort of action after the fact... Real life is messy and seldom plays out the way you think it would so I'm very grateful it wasn't needed..
     
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  12. Shawn Dodson

    Shawn Dodson Member

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    California Highway Patrol and Duncan MacPherson tested handgun bullet deflection through windshield glass and concluded the effects are so small that there's no need to compensate for deflection by aiming differently.
     
  13. ClicheBro

    ClicheBro member

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    I recommend you find out for yourself. My experience proved it to be false.
     
  14. Mal H

    Mal H Administrator Staff Member

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    Please elaborate, what experience is that?
     
  15. ClicheBro

    ClicheBro member

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    Bullets choose the path of least resistance so shooting out of a windshield deflects the up and shooting into the car deflects them down. It tends to be 5" or so with 9mm ball on targets within a foot of the bumper.
     
  16. Mal H

    Mal H Administrator Staff Member

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    That's just a statement made without a cited source which may or may not be based on actual experimental data.

    Again, what is your personal experience in shooting automobile windows?
     
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  17. Jeff White

    Jeff White Moderator Staff Member

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    There is a thread that I posted maybe 15 plus years ago with the actual test results I personally conducted on shooting through glass. I even shot a bullet resistant HMWV windshield. There are photos with all of the different calibers marked on the glass. It's here if someone wants to dig it out.
     
  18. Shawn Dodson

    Shawn Dodson Member

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    General rule of thumb
    top-of-the-bullet-making-contact-deflection-firing-from-inside-53731888.png
     
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  19. ClicheBro

    ClicheBro member

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    My experience is shooting through car windshields a few times and my source is I lift more than you.
     
  20. Old Dog

    Old Dog Member

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    Yeah, the thread should be done after this response.
     
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  21. Mal H

    Mal H Administrator Staff Member

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    It is.

    Closed.
     
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