Quantcast
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Does a +1 pocket pistol violate the 4 rules?

Discussion in 'Handguns: General Discussion' started by hammerklavier, Feb 14, 2010.

?

Read the discussion and vote.

  1. Yes

    4 vote(s)
    3.3%
  2. No

    109 vote(s)
    90.8%
  3. Maybe

    7 vote(s)
    5.8%
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. hammerklavier

    hammerklavier Member

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2009
    Messages:
    837
    Location:
    North Carolina
    Does carrying a pocket pistol with one in the chamber (or revolver without one empty) violate rule number two? The rule does not stipulate that you must be holding the weapon in your hand before you apply. If it is sitting against your leg are you released from rule number 2?

    When you sit down with a gun in your pocket, chances are it's going to be pointing at someone else. Or just walking around, it will be pointing at people's legs, small children, etc, every time you take a step forwards.

    Now the rules say treat every gun, including unloaded guns, as if they were loaded. But this is in part because the person at the other end doesn't know the state of the gun. Since the gun is concealed, what they don't know won't hurt them.

    So what do you think? Is carrying a +1 pocket pistol a violation of rule 2?
     
  2. Jon_Snow

    Jon_Snow Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2008
    Messages:
    467
    Location:
    Bay Area, Ca
    Yes, it is, but so is almost any form of carry. The rules have to have some reasonable exceptions. Common sense is the important thing here.
     
  3. jahwarrior

    jahwarrior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2007
    Messages:
    1,098
    Location:
    Dickson City, PA
    no. it should be assumed that all 4 rules work in tandem, so a gun in a pocket holster doesn't meet the requirements as a gun in hand does. otherwise, we'd need to transport our EDC in a shopping cart, 10' away from us, unloaded.
     
  4. rcmodel

    rcmodel Member in memoriam

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2007
    Messages:
    59,082
    Location:
    Eastern KS
    Any pocket pistol in my pocket is in a pocket holster with the trigger covered.
    A gun in a holster with the trigger covered is not going to shoot by itself.

    To follow the logic, you would have to keep the next revolver chamber to come up empty, not the one under the hammer.
    That is the one that will roll under the hammer if the revolver is accidently cocked in your pocket somehow.

    rc
     
  5. ljnowell

    ljnowell Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2008
    Messages:
    6,193
    Location:
    The Peoples Republic of IL
    The gun is either holstered, or if pocket carried being carried as designed. The only way it would violate #2 is if you were walking around with it in you hand pointing it at things.
     
  6. NG VI

    NG VI Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2007
    Messages:
    4,884
    Location:
    Maine
    The four rules have absolutely nothing to do with the other person, except for the fact that it is for their safety as well as your own. What they think or know about your pistol is totally irrelevant to safe handling.
     
  7. content

    content Member

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2009
    Messages:
    2,015
    Location:
    South Carolina, born in Valley Forge Pa.
    Hello friends and neighbors // No
    Point is the key word, you point with your hand either your finger or something else held in your hand.
     
  8. Webbj0219

    Webbj0219 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2008
    Messages:
    300
    Location:
    Manchester, NH
    Ha ha. I was thinking the same thing when I started carrying. I carry mine in an outside waistband holster that rides high, so the gun hides under my shirt. But the positioning of the gun is aimed so that if it went off the bullet would probably blow out my hip socket. its just aimed in such a way that the barrell of the gun rests just above the protruding socket bone of my hip. Anyway I was a lil worried about it going off and me needing a hip replacemnet at sucha young age. Ive decided its worth the risk, and after a while of it not going off I can trust it to not go off. The gun has an 11 pound trigger pull and there is a trigger gaurd, the holster also covers the trigger. So all this together makes it very near imposible that it will ever accidenally go off in my holster. same probable aplies to pocket carry. Id recomend using a pocket holster if your not already.
     
  9. savit260

    savit260 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2007
    Messages:
    792
    Once it's in a holster with the trigger covered, and your hand is off of the weapon, it's no longer able to go off, so it's fine.
     
  10. atomd

    atomd Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2006
    Messages:
    1,298
    I'd bet lots of us have guns that are pointed at the wall of a safe right now....that doesn't mean we want to destroy our safes. A gun is an inanimate object. A person chooses how to handle it. The rules are for people, not guns.
     
  11. 19-3Ben

    19-3Ben Member

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2006
    Messages:
    5,146
    Location:
    CT
    I voted no, but in reality, technically, the answer is yes.

    Here's my logic:

    Yes, in a pocket, it is going to be pointing at my leg, and when putting it in pocket, it's going to be pointing at my dangly bits. Both of which are appendages that I'd like to keep until a ripe old age.
    Therefore it is a per se violation of rule #2.

    However, the four rules cannot be looked at in a vacuum. I follow each law, but the laws must be followed in the totality of the circumstances. Using a standard of "the totality of the circumstances", yes pocket carry may be a violation of #2, but it does not create an unsafe condition. There is little to no risk of negligent discharge, nor self-inflicted injury.
     
  12. jad0110

    jad0110 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2006
    Messages:
    4,047
    Location:
    Somewhere between the Eastern Block states and Flo
    I voted maybe.

    If you drop a gun (fully loaded or +1) in your pocket with no holster and other objects floating around (keys, flashlight, pocket knife, whatever), then I'd have to say yes. It is an ND waiting for a time and a place to happen.

    If the gun is holstered with the trigger guard shielded, without any other crap in your pocket, and you aren't doing dumb stuff like "walking around with it in you hand pointing it at things", then I'd say no - you are good to go IMO.
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2010
  13. 19-3Ben

    19-3Ben Member

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2006
    Messages:
    5,146
    Location:
    CT
    ^^^^

    Ahh yes. I should have also mentioned that. I had to remind my father of this when he started carrying.

    If one puts other stuff in the pocket, then I would say it creates the opportunity for a dangerous situation to arise.
    When I pocket carry, the LCP goes in pocket holster and goes in the pocket all alone. Nothing else in there.
     
  14. HDStreet

    HDStreet Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2010
    Messages:
    20
    Location:
    Colorado
    Try racking in a round in your semi-auto when being charged by the BG. That's stupid. I always carry +1 and refuse not to.

    I am an industrial electrician and that's like saying I have to suit up in my flash protective gear to unplug an energized 120v home lamp cord.

    We are witnessing the dumbing of Americans through all these stupid laws and rules.

    But by all means; double check your gear, use your brain and common sense. Be safe, work safe, play safe and think safe!
     
  15. msb45

    msb45 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2004
    Messages:
    277
    Location:
    PA
    Voted no. The rules are for gun handling. A holstered weapon is being carried, not handled. Everytime you clean your gun you should inspect it for proper functioning, including safeties. Doing that will keep you safe.
     
  16. The Lone Haranguer

    The Lone Haranguer Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2006
    Messages:
    11,717
    Location:
    Johnson City, TN
    The Rules are for handling and shooting the gun - coming into play the moment you put your hand on it - not while it is simply being carried.
     
  17. mljdeckard

    mljdeckard Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2006
    Messages:
    12,705
    Location:
    In a part of Utah that resembles Tattooine.
    The four rules are firearm HANDLING rules. They are in effect while you are holding a gun. All forms of carry put the muzzle towards something you don't want to destroy.
     
  18. 19-3Ben

    19-3Ben Member

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2006
    Messages:
    5,146
    Location:
    CT
    So does the gun just magically fall into your pocket?;)
    I don't know about you, but I have to grab my gun with my hands and put the gun in there. So until the gun has come to rest at the bottom of the pocket, it is being "handled" by your definition.
     
  19. Quoheleth

    Quoheleth Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2007
    Messages:
    3,190
    Location:
    The Land of Bowie, Crockett, Travis & Houston
    You're overthinking this.
    Safety first.
    Common sense second.

    Q
     
  20. The Lone Haranguer

    The Lone Haranguer Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2006
    Messages:
    11,717
    Location:
    Johnson City, TN
    As you said yourself in the rest of the post, the gun is being handled at that time. So keep it pointed away from your leg, foot, groin or femoral artery :uhoh: and your finger off the trigger and you will be fine. ;) Personally, I like to put my pocket gun into its Mika pocket holster first, then the gun and holster into my pocket.
     
  21. Mainsail

    Mainsail Member

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2005
    Messages:
    3,070
    Location:
    Washington
    The problem is that you don't know what the 'rules' really are. Somewhere along the line they had to be dumbed down because dumb people who wanted to have guns couldn't remember them.

    First, they are the Four Rules for Handling Firearms.

    Additionally, the first rule is to treat every gun as though it is loaded until you confirm (for yourself) that it is not. Defined the way you have it in the OP, you could never clean, demonstrate, or dry-fire your gun. Some people were too stupid for even the shortened rule, so it was shortened even more to "all guns are always loaded" which is even less true.
     
  22. ljnowell

    ljnowell Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2008
    Messages:
    6,193
    Location:
    The Peoples Republic of IL
    Why woud you treat it any differently after verifying its unloaded? Many people with same atitude have been shot, shot someone, or shot someone else because "I checked it and it was unloaded."

    Feed the antis.
     
  23. shockwave

    shockwave Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2010
    Messages:
    1,182
    Location:
    Florida
    That's the correct answer. The rules do not apply to guns that are being transported safely (which is its own discussion), but guns that are being handled.

    The other day I was cleaning some weapons at the table and because I was handling them, it was prudent to keep the barrels pointed away from me and anyone else in the home. Once cleaned, loaded and returned to their assigned areas, they are considered safe.
     
  24. Mainsail

    Mainsail Member

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2005
    Messages:
    3,070
    Location:
    Washington
    After verifying that my gun is unloaded I can clean it. I can also dry-fire it. I can show it to my friend. I can disassemble it. Those are all things that I would never do with a loaded gun.

    It’s actually the attitude of complacency, caused by saying “all guns are always loaded” when you freely, willingly, and consistently ignore the rule, that causes someone to be shot “accidently”. If you say that “all guns are always loaded” and then treat it as though it isn’t loaded, by cleaning, dry-firing, or displaying it to a friend, then you are proving yourself either a liar or a dangerous gun owner.
     
  25. hammerklavier

    hammerklavier Member

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2009
    Messages:
    837
    Location:
    North Carolina
    No, the first rule is there not just for your benefit, but for the benefit of people around you. So you can't "show it" to your friend if he didn't personally confirm it was unloaded. The other person has no way of knowing if it's unloaded or not, hence the "always" rule.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page