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Does a bad extractor improve with break-in?

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by mljdeckard, Jun 18, 2017.

  1. mljdeckard

    mljdeckard Member

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    I bought a RIA double-stack 9mm/.22 TCM combo, which is mostly glorious, except that the magazines are $40+ each.

    The problem is, I'm getting failures to extract. In the middle of the magazine, it fails. It doesn't double-feed, the extractor seems to lose its grip and the case is stuck halfway out. If I drop the magazine and let it fall forward to try to get them to extract by racking it again, sometimes the .22 TCM cases seem to stick, I have to force them hard.

    Of course before I complain to RIA, I have to crank through 500 rounds. (I'm not going to tell them the first 100 was my handloads.) I ran a couple hundred Blazer brass 124gr through it, and 100 factory .22 TCM as well, it does it with both cartridges/barrels. What I'm wondering, is if this is a common break in problem? That an extractor will have issues during break-in, and then even out and be fine? I have never had extractor issues before. (And I have been advised that if you have a good 1911 extractor, you shouldn't mess with it.) Or should I just have someone time the extractor now? If I call RIA now, they will tell me to call back after 500 rounds.
     
  2. RecoilRob

    RecoilRob Member

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    It might be possible if the extractor is too tight that wearing in would let it get closer to where it should be, but in your case it sounds like the extractor is without adequate tension and dropping the case. This is easy to check....see how much effort it takes to slide a case up the breech face into the extractor and how well it holds it there. If it takes little effort then the extractor tension probably needs to be increased a bit. Not hard to do at all and there are many 'how-to's' on the web.
     
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  3. mljdeckard

    mljdeckard Member

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    I may do exactly this.
     
  4. mljdeckard

    mljdeckard Member

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    But I may yell at RIA AND make them fix it.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2017
  5. 243winxb

    243winxb Member

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    My 45 acp starting not extracting. Made an adjustment to the extractor, now it works fine.

    At times, i will put a round in the chamber and let the slide slam closed on it. This is hard on the extractor, as it bounces over the rim of the cartridge.
     
  6. wally

    wally Member

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    Aren't these based on the RIA 9mm 1911-A2 "clone" of the Para P18? You should be able to find the Mec-Gar P18 mags for $20-25 each.

    Internal or external extractor? If internal any of the web-pages showing how to adjust the tension of the 1911 extractor should be able to help solve the problem. If its an external, they use a Tanfoglio CZ75-like extractor so IMHO you should contact RIA as its generally a very reliable setup and not adjustable. Their customer support is generally very good.
     
  7. mljdeckard

    mljdeckard Member

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    It's internal. Yes, I can doodle with it myself. The thing is, in the past, when either myself or my friends have bought a new gun, and it had problems, and we were told; "Send it back to the factory, give them a chance to make it right." Which is fine. Except when it's your only gun, and you don't want to be down for the back and forth time. That's when it seems better to take it to a local gunsmith just to make it faster. This isn't my only gun. Now I can wait, so if it needs a fix, I will probably make RIA do it. But I will try some self edjumacation too.

    I might try some other magazines, from what I have read, the ones for .22 TCM have been slightly modified, there is a small divot at the front of the lips. But the TCM is strictly recreational, I don't need four highly reliable mags for it.
     
  8. frogfurr

    frogfurr Member

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    If there isn't enough extractor tension it can cause failures to eject. If there is too much extractor tension it can cause failures to feed. Somewhere in between is just right.
     
  9. mljdeckard

    mljdeckard Member

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    Reading the reviews on Midway for the Mec Gar mags, people are saying they have run .22 TCM through them both with and without mods, it appears they will work one way or another. The only reviews that said they were bad mags didn't specify which gun they were trying them in. I think they are worth trying a couple.
     
  10. Tirod

    Tirod Member

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    Run the 500 thru it. If the problem persists, polish the chamber.

    I'm of the mind that the function of an extractor in a properly timed and functioning gun is to remove a casing when it hasn't been fired - not to drag it out under pressure with the case still expanded. What is supposed to happen is the action opens at the precise moment the case relaxes, yet still has enough residual pressure bearing on it to push the slide back. The casing isn't "extracted" so much as "blown back" out of the chamber. With that in mind I'm thinking soft sticky brass and/or a chamber too rough to release it.

    A lot of us have seen pictures of brass cases still in the chamber where the extractor ripped right thru the rim. It wasn't coming out regardless. Considering the amount of force on the extractor, I'd prefer one that slipped off when it wasn't timed or functioning properly. It won't get damaged further and it's signalling that it's not capable of doing the job correctly because the casing has too much friction.

    If the problem persists I would investigate the ramp angle and how fast the slide is unlocking from the barrel.
     
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  11. RecoilRob

    RecoilRob Member

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    Just a thought: the old 22 Jet in S&W revolvers used to have issues because of the bottle-neck design and required the chambers to be squeaky clean or they'd stick and bind it up. Could something like this be happening here? And experiment might be worth doing: surgically clean the chamber and see if it runs for a bit before running into problems. If that would be the case, I don't know what you'd do about such a thing....besides limiting your shooting or cleaning it often.
     
  12. SwampWolf

    SwampWolf Member

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    Improve on its own-no tweaking, twittering or tweeting? No, not in my experience.
     
  13. SwampWolf

    SwampWolf Member

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    Not likely that a "squeaky clean" chamber will fix the op's problem. As you say, the chambers of the Model 53 had to be kept scrupulously to prevent the bottlenecked cartridges from backing out of the chambers against the recoil shield when fired, tying up the revolver. I don't think that's what's "happening here".
     
  14. Steve C

    Steve C Member

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    You are having a "failure to eject" not a failure to extract. Extractors only pull unfired cartridges from the chamber when you retract the slide manually. When a chambered round is fired the case is forced out the back of the chamber against the breech face by the same gas pressure that pushes the bullet out the front of the barrel. This is what pushes the slide of the semi auto rearward.

    The failure you are describing is usually caused by the case sticking in the chamber or the slide movement being retarded and can usually be solved by cleaning and lubricating you handgun. Do a good cleaning on your chamber. If you've been using steel case lacquer or poly coated cheap ammo the coating on the ammo can foul the chamber.
     
  15. Mike J

    Mike J Member

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    I agree with the posts saying to clean the chamber. Not a 1911 but when I fired my AR for the first time after putting it together I was having similar issues. I went to a forum board & asked what to do. I had cleaned the rifle & lubricated before firing but I had just ran a patch through the barrel & not thoroughly cleaned the chamber. After getting the chamber clean my issues went away.
     
  16. wally

    wally Member

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    Not in general, depends on the gun. What you say fully describes a blow-back pistol -- most .22lr, many .380 and a few center-fire like the HiPoint 9mm etc. It can't be an ejection failure until the empty case is fully out of the chamber. Most .22lr will stovepipe badly if the extractor breaks as with nothing holding the empty against breech-face ejection is less than brisk -- I know from personal experience. As I always say "if you've never broken a gun, you just ain't been shooting enough!"

    A broken extractor on a 1911 will almost always leave the unfired case essentially fully in the chamber. I know, the extractor tip on my Colt broke off when shooting my initial CHL qualifier, I'd shot well enough before it broke and managed to shake out the empties and single load enough shots in the last to stage to get a passing score.

    If the "timing" is wrong the extractor can be overpowered as the still too high pressure causes the case to stick overpowering the grip of the extractor -- look for "rips" or marks on the extraction groove lip where the extractor was forced off it. Little the end user can do about it unless shooting too hot reloads. Cleaning/polishing the chamber might help, but if its a new pistol shooting factory ammo I'd suggest letting RIA make it right. Its entirely possible for chamber irregularities that are unfix-able with polish and elbow grease to cause this issue.

    You are offering suggestions that simply do not apply -- there is no steel cased TCM ammo available.

    Since the OP says it happens with both 9mm and TCM barrels and its an internal extractor, I'd do the simple 1911 extractor tension increase procedure and then send it back to RIA if its not the solution.
     
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  17. Hanzo581

    Hanzo581 Member

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    Don't mind me....
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2017
  18. Sunray

    Sunray Member

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    An extractor that doesn't work properly is not going to fix itself. However, it sounds more like it has to do with the .22 TCM not being enough to cycle the action. Assuming the Combo part is just a barrel change but using the same slide.
     
  19. mljdeckard

    mljdeckard Member

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    I cleaned both chambers thoroughly, both before and after firing, and the problem persists with BOTH barrels, .22 TCM AND 9mm.
     
  20. rskent

    rskent Member

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    Not at all. The round slides up the breach face under the extractor when you feed from a magazine.

    Snapping the slide forward when there is a round in the chamber is very hard on 1911 extractors.

    In my mind tuning an extractor in a 1911 is just simple maintenance, not really fixing.
     
  21. wally

    wally Member

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    Time to send it back to RIA. Go to their web site during "normal" business hours, they have a live chat with a technician that will ask you questions and Email you a pre-paid return shipping label. Or you could call them if you prefer a phone conversation. Kudo's to RIA, Kel-Tec and S&W for, in my experience, handling everything via Email.

    I'm kind of surprised that RIA used an internal extractor, I thought the TCM was based on their 1911-A2 "Widebody" pistols. I have early examples in 9mm and .45ACP, but they used ramped barrels and external extractors. The 1911 is a "controlled feed" design and the extractor is not expected to "snap" over the cartridge. Its difficult to make this work with a double stack mag so "push feeding" with an extractor designed to deflect over the cartridge base is usually what is done. Off hand I can't think of a controlled feed double stack pistol, don't mean there aren't any, but I can see how it would be troublesome in practice.
     
  22. Hanzo581

    Hanzo581 Member

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    I apparently need to shoot and look at my 1911 more, I thought it was similar to others where it had a spring system that would make the jumping the rim part easier, but now that I look at it :uhoh: don't mind me.
     
  23. rskent

    rskent Member

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    Why is that? There is still only one round at the top. I don’t get it. :confused:
     
  24. wally

    wally Member

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    Because the magazine spring needs to force the round up and under the extractor and not allow the heavier in front round to dip its nose downward as it does it, with a single stack there is not so much variance between top and bottom round as there is with a double stack and the "constriction" where it transitions from double stack to single round.

    Load a double stack mag. Then strip the rounds with your thumb -- feel and see the variation of how the rounds pop up and out, then do the same for a single stack magazine. A typical single stack 1911 needs an 11 lb magazine spring.
     
  25. gc70

    gc70 Member

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    You decide what is more likely:
    • two barrels in different calibers and chamber configurations BOTH have similar defects that prevent fired casings from being properly extracted, or;
    • one extractor has a defect that prevents fired casings from being properly extracted, regardless of the barrel/caliber used in the gun.
    Call, chat, or email RIA to send the gun back. RIA does use the "shoot 500 rounds" dodge when people have nebulous complaints that may or may not reflect a real problem. Describe your issue clearly and fully and it will be clear that you have a real problem that requires factory correction and will not "work itself out."
     
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