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Does anyone else EDC a baton?

Discussion in 'Non-Firearm Weapons' started by Praxidike, Aug 5, 2014.

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  1. Praxidike

    Praxidike Member

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    I never heard of a collapsible baton until recently when someone mentioned something about an ASP Baton (I had to Google to find out what it was). After researching it a little, I decided to buy one to compliment my pepper spray as a non lethal self defense alternative.

    I came across this amazon Collapsible Baton on Amazon. It'd very affordable and just about all of the reviews are favorable...

    Anyway, do or have any of you EDC a baton, or have you ever witnessed anyone else other that L.E. putting one to use?
     
  2. drband

    drband Member

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    In many states you need weapons permit to carry one.
     
  3. HRnightmare

    HRnightmare Member

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    I believe FL is one of the states. You can open carry it without a CWP but you need one to conceal it. (don't quote me on that because I haven't followed the rules here in the past 10 years or so since I got my CWP because I carry a gun and typically a knife. I have no interest in carrying a baton.)

    Quite frankly I think carrying a baton is unneccesary. If there is a threat that you feel is credible and may cause serious bodily harm or death you pull your firearm or knife. Beating someone up with a baton seems more excessive than drawing a gun. If you don't want to use lethal force than you should not be carrying a gun.

    NOW if you are asking because you plan on carrying a baton where you can't legally carry a gun OR you don't have a CWP or your job wont let you carry a gun, etc. than I understand the point of it and its "need".

    however I think the stigma of someone pulling a baton out and using it may cause ALOT of negative opinions.


    Again, can you not legally carry a gun? I feel like a gun would mitigate the need for BOTH of these. AND if you carry a gun, pepper spray and now a baton...you either need to re-evaluate were you live / work / play or you likely have a real desire to be a cop. Do you carry handcuffs too?
     
  4. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

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    Non-lethal is a complete misnomer here. Depending on your training and how you use it, it MAY be "less-lethal."

    Striking someone with a baton will be viewed as use of a deadly weapon just as much as a gun or knife would be in most cases. (Whereas pepper spray or a Tazer is not, though their use is still an assault.)

    In almost any case where you'd be found justified in using a baton against a human being, you'd have been just as justified in using a firearm.

    Further, while carrying a cane or walking stick can be a very useful alternative as it has a clear "primary" purpose that is legally protected in most cases, a collapsible baton does not, is not.
     
  5. rcmodel

    rcmodel Member in memoriam

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    Againt the law to carry one in Kansas.

    rc
     
  6. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

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    I'll reinforce that a baton is not a "non-lethal" defensive tool any more than a lead pipe is non-lethal. It is a tool that can be used for less lethal defensive use IF you have the knowledge and skill, gained through training and practice, to use it that way. Make a mistake and you can easily kill someone with it.

    Carrying a baton is fraught with legal issues. You need to know what your particular state requirements are if you want to avoid breaking the law. You need to understand that if any permanent damage is done to someone with it you may face possible civil action by them or their survivors unless you live in a state that preempts them in clear self defense situations. In my state you must be certified to legally carry a baton and you can't be certified without some minimal training.

    The Fury is junk and you should only invest in a quality baton if you decide you can comply with state and local laws and you commit to get the training to use it safely.

    There are plenty of alternatives you should consider for defensive impact tools, but they all require some training and practice to provide the skill needed to use them in a crisis.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2014
  7. CWL

    CWL Member

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    Not that I'd carry one, but if I did carry a collapsible baton, I certainly wouldn't choose Fury. They have earned a reputation for junk products.
     
  8. Praxidike

    Praxidike Member

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    It's legal how me to carry and conceal one in VA.

    As an off-the-cuff example, if an assailant has someone in a choke hold, I'd like to have, at my digression and when common sense dictates, the option to use pepper spray and/or a single strike to the leg or arm. I'm not talking about continuously hitting and/or beating someone over the head with it.

    Also, the picture of the Fury is in the Amazon ad, but if you read the reviews, that's not the baton that is being delivered. Everyone is saying, to their surprise, that they are receiving a high quality baton that is comparable to batons that or 3x the price.
     
  9. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

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    One strike or 30 would not change whether this is considered a deadly weapon or not.

    Having alternative weapons is not a bad idea, to some degree, but you'd need exactly the same justification for striking someone with that baton as you'd need for any other physical attack on them that might kill them.
     
  10. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

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    FWIW, there are instances where batons are used as less-lethal devices, but the training in so doing is vital and documentation of that training can be important to have.

    You bought a baton off Amazon and used it on someone? That's use of deadly force.

    (You're a trained corrections officer or some such and used a baton on the legs and arms of a rioting prisoner? That's probably not use of deadly force. Context and training matter here.)
     
  11. Praxidike

    Praxidike Member

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    Amazon has the incorrect picture up there. This is the real Amazon product page for the Fury Baton that has negative reviews. That is not the one I ordered. The one I ordered is by a different company, and dozens of reviewers, several within the past couple of weeks, claim that what they received was better than what they expected. The quality is high according to them.

    I'll judge for myself when it gets here tomorrow, but if it's not, I'll simple send it back at Amazon's cost.
     
  12. Praxidike

    Praxidike Member

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    Yes, it could be be deadly force. So could a cane/walking stick. Hitting anyone with any blunt object could potentially be deadly force. I guess my point is that compared to stabbing or shooting someone, 1 strike to a leg or arm would be less likely to result in a loss of life. If as in my off the top of my head example, an assailant had someone else in a choke hold, I'd like to have options base of the situation. Sometimes taking a life or risking shooting the victim as well as the attacker might not be the best option for that particular situation.
     
  13. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

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    I don't disagree with that and like I said, having options is usually a good thing (as long as you don't get crossed up trying to sort out which thing to grab in your moment of desperation). Just pointing out that in instances where "less lethal" means of force might have an ever-so-slightly wider acceptability than deadly force does, a baton won't be considered such.
     
  14. chameleonbear

    chameleonbear Member

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    I actually carry one in my bag. However it has not nor will ever be used against a human. I do not have the training to properly use it in such a manner. I use it as a protection against animals. I have also used it to crack open a car window, and used it to break/check other random stuff. I've used it on a tire to make sure it was properly inflated... But it's never been used as a weapon (lethal or less than) against a person.
     
  15. RustyShackelford

    RustyShackelford member

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    ASP batons......

    ASP batons have been in use since the mid 1980s. 007/Bond used a MI-06 issued ASP a few times in author John Gardner's Bond novels. ;)
    ASPs were standard issue to sworn US Secret Service agents too. Actor Clint Eastwood used a ASP in a scene for In The Line Of Fire(1993, www.imfdb.org ).
    Many police & sworn deputies in my metro area use ASPs. I've seen the company site & it looks like they cut many models. :confused:
    I liked the airweight "lever-loc" 21" baton but it now seems "out of stock" :mad:.

    I also saw the Mako Group polymer(rubber coated handle & glass breaker) 21" weapon. Author & tactics trainer Massad F Ayoob, www.MassadAyoobgroup.com , gave the polymer Mako weapon a good write-up. It retails directly from Mako for approx $89.00 USD.
    I saw a simple S&W branded baton for about $30.00 at a local Bass Pro Shop. The quality looked decent & it had a rubber grip.
    I like the "glass breaker" add ons which not all impact batons have. Injured drivers in ponds or streams is common in my metro area & the incidents of babies/kids in hot cars have increased too.
    Many cops & armed professionals are going back to polished wood/custom made night sticks. The quality is great & they have merit for some limited uses. I've seen a few shops & custom wood stick builders online. Wait times & delivery can be long. :(

    As for the use of impact weapons, Id check the local laws or statues. For Florida you can see; www.mylicensesite.com and/or get a recent www.Floridafirearmslaw.com guide. The gun law guide is by a working Florida lawyer/JD. He also covers OC sprays, canes/batons, knives, EDWs/Taser, etc.

    To my knowledge, a valid FL W/concealed license covers concealed impact weapons, chemical agents(mace), EDWs, etc. These items can be carried in the open w/o a W license but city or county ordinances might apply.
     
  16. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

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    Woah there. You're not a cop and you're not authorized to take a pipe and start whacking on sum dude you don't know wrestling with sum other dude you don't know. That's not smart and can land you in a world of trouble. You're much better off with the pepper spray in that sort of situation (you're actually much better off staying out of that situation other than to call 911).

    A baton is useful if you're trained in using it to defend yourself. Just yourself. AND that training is important more than you realize.

    I'm trained and certified to carry one and I've trained with sticks for years and I promise you that it is remarkably easy for an amatuer to missunderstand the complexities of using one. If you carry a cane or flashlight and you think you want to get some guy off another guy do not strike at their arms unless you're willing to own the responsibility for hitting either of them in the face or head and causing permanent injury that will cripple you financially and personally.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2014
  17. RustyShackelford

    RustyShackelford member

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    Citizens using impact weapons....

    I agree with the last message.
    Private citizens using impact weapons or batons can have serious legal & civil action problems. :uhoh:
    I've talked to sworn LE officers & licensed security who prefer not to carry/use them.
    As noted, strikes or jabs can quickly turn ugly. "Witnesses" or by-standers may see you wielding a stick or baton then tell investigators/prosecutors you were aggressive or violent. The attack or robbery would be quickly distorted unless a CCTV video or other crime scene details can display the baton owner's actions.

    A C2 Taser or a Mark III/IV size OC spray might work better than a sap, ASP, PR24 or night-stick.
     
  18. Vonderek

    Vonderek Member

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    I carry one EDC as when I walk my dog every day. Have had some run-ins with loose pitbulls in the past and think it would give me some space without having to shoot them.
     
  19. westy39

    westy39 Member

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    I carried an ASP baton for several years on duty. The ASP is one fine piece of equipment and IT IS NOT A LEAD PIPE. If you do decide to carry one, as I still do, then check your local laws and get some training. There are a lot of opinions out there regarding the ASP I for one found it to be a much better choice than the PR24 I carried before the BPD let me carry the ASP. Just my thoughts from the Big Sky Country, Montana.
     
  20. zerobarrier
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    zerobarrier Contributing Member

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    Correct me if I am wrong but I always thought a baton was an offensive weapon more then a defensive weapon.
     
  21. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

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    Offensive? How do you mean? Sticks of various kinds have been used for millennia to defend one's self. Kind of an inefficient choice for hunting down someone, though. Any weapon you have to close to nearly contact distance to use makes a sub-optimal choice for offensive purposes.
     
  22. RustyShackelford

    RustyShackelford member

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    US law enforcement use of impact weapons......

    Batons or night-sticks have been in US law enforcement & private security since the early 1800s.
    I was issued a cheap wood night-stick in the MPs in the late 1980s. Today's USAF Security Forces(what were SPs) & US Army MPs use the standard ASPs :rolleyes: .
    As noted, a few defense enthusiasts & law enforcement/security officers are now buying custom wood batons. They do not collapse like the PR24s or ASPs.
    I've heard they work better for patrol use. Cops or guards can use impact weapons to deflect strikes or blows.
    "Less lethal" weapons are intended to subdue or de-escalate an aggressive subject. Training is critical with batons or ASPs. A mistake or a swing to the wrong spot could quickly kill a subject or cause a TBI. :uhoh:
    A street thug with a 24 page rap sheet & prison tats all over his 6'06" body will role his wheel-chair into court & the "jury of your peers" will look at you like you just kicked their dog. :rolleyes:

    PDs & state troopers get sued all the time over batons & impact weapons. A citizen will be unfairly called a "wanna be cop" or "blood-thirsty" for having a ASP or night-stick.

    www.Sheepdogwoodworks.com
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2014
  23. Praxidike

    Praxidike Member

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    It's all a matter of common sense. In some cases I believe people will be more understanding of the uses of a baton vs pulling out a gun, and for some people, they are going to look at us as "blood thirsty" no matter what weapon we carry especially in the case of a firearm.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2014
  24. Praxidike

    Praxidike Member

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    It was an example that wasn't meant to be taken literally as if I would run up to complete strangers and start whacking away, but if was in a situation where I personally felt that shooting someone could be interpreted as being justified, but would be overkill, I would call 911 and use pepper spray first whether it was an animal or a person...
     
  25. Madcap_Magician

    Madcap_Magician Member

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    You know, having trained with Monadnock batons, I really prefer a straight stick or a PR24.

    I like the PR24 because you can hold the side handle for that thrust twixt wind and water while also using the shaft along your forearm to defend against knife/stick/hand-to-hand attacks.

    I feel that the expandables are poorly balanced for striking- often the weight is centered more toward the hand than toward the tip.

    A good hickory straight stick is much faster in hand, too.
     
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