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Does Anyone have a pistol-caliber carbine as their main or a primary shtf weapon?

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by 50caliber123, Jun 24, 2006.

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  1. 50caliber123

    50caliber123 Member

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    several advantages: Ammo is cheaper, easier on recoil, a good carbine is very affordable. Good for cqb, not so good for distance shots though.
     
  2. beerslurpy

    beerslurpy member

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    There is pistol ammo cheaper than 7.62x39? I am building a 45 ACP AR15 at the moment and I wish this were true. But doing this project has given me other perspectives as well. After much sober deliberation, I have determined that the only advantage of pistol caliber rifles over intermediate cartriedge rifles is that they can be suppressed.

    Compare pistol cartridges (9mm, 45acp) to intermediate carts (223, 7.62x39) from otherwise identical guns with identical barrel lengths.
    stopping power: rifles
    range: rifles
    accuracy: rifles
    penetration of armor: rifles
    cost of ammo: tie
    weight of ammo: tie (yes really)
    magazine capacity: tie for a given size
    suppressed use: pistol, if subsonic
     
  3. esldude

    esldude Member

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    Yeah, have a couple of 9mm carbines. If you have to have women or teenagers use one, you find they take to them much better than full rifles. Less recoil, and noise, yet the advantages of accuracy in close to medium range. Makes them unintimidating.

    Of course otherwise all the same advantages. Quick, rapid follow up shots. Easy to carry large amounts of ammo. And cheaper than most centerfire.
     
  4. browningguy

    browningguy Member

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    Well to answer the question, no. But I do have a Sub2000 in 9mm with the G19 mag well and 4x30 rd. mags. I wouldn't feel too bad if I new I would only use it at close range (out to 50 yards), but much prefer the SU16 in .223 past that.
     
  5. Just_a_dude_with_a_gun

    Just_a_dude_with_a_gun Member

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    Yes, I do. It's good, and bad for seperate reasons.....

    I live in an urban area, 1 mile from NYC, and I get a lot of practive with my Ruger PC4, as My P239 shares that caliber. There just isn't anyhere to use
    a true rifle round here, so I'm very familiar with that gun, that round, and the limitations.

    The bad part is that my urban setting dictates that I'm more likely to need much gun as possible than a backwoods guy who lives a mile from the nearest neighbor.

    I go to my roof, and within a stone's throw see a housing project full of illegally armed felons.
     
  6. pdowg881

    pdowg881 Member

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    arent suppressors illegal
     
  7. 444

    444 Member

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    "I have determined that the only advantage of pistol caliber rifles over intermediate cartriedge rifles is that they can be suppressed. "

    Why can't intermediate cartridge rifles be suppressed also ?
     
  8. Mannlicher

    Mannlicher Member

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    other than my .44 Mag and .357 Mag lever guns, I see zero use for pistol caliber carbines. I feel I am much better served with an AR15 or Mini-14.
     
  9. beerslurpy

    beerslurpy member

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    Where you live, maybe. Not in America though.

    Well you can put wheels on house, but that doesnt mean it will drive anywhere.

    Intermediate rifle cartridges suffer from:
    High bullet flight noise. They are supersonic, they make 135-140 db the instant a bullet leaves the barrel. That noise doesnt trace back to the shooter, fortunately, it follows the bullet. But it is noticeable that someone is shooting a rifle, if this is a concern for you. Hearing "crack crack crack" would get my attention, as well as the attention of any cop or NG in earshot of the bullet's path.
    High report noise. This is addressed by the suppressor.
    High gas system noise. The suppressor increases backpressure. For all guns this increases fouling but also noise if the gas system vents to atmosphere. This is like having a second 130-140db report that the suppressor doesnt affect. AR doesnt have this problem, but gets extra fouling and heat problems when suppressed. If your gun is prone to the "occaisional jam" it will become prone to a lot more of them when suppressed.
    fairly high action cycling noise. Hammer fired semiauto = 120+ db of noise. I think that the striker fired guns get down to maybe low 110s for action noise, but this will only be relevant on a subsonic gun with no other noise.

    Using subsonic pistol cartridges and blowback operation gets rid of bullet flight noise and gas system noise. Using a bolt action or a padded buffer and using a striker fired system can partially eliminate action noise as well. A mammoth suppressor brings overall barrel length up to 16 inches and gets rid of the report. Not only will no one know you are shooting, but whatever you are shooting at will be largely oblivious unless a bullet strikes near them.

    Here is a chart of bullet noise to velocity. Above supersonic = loud.
    [​IMG]
     
  10. Dave Markowitz

    Dave Markowitz Member

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    Re: suppressors

    A bit of anecdotal evidence ...

    A couple weeks ago I had the opportunity to observe a suppressed Savage bolt gun in .308 being shot with full power loads. I took and earplug out to listen, and it sounded like a HV .22 LR from a rifle. I was VERY impressed. If that degree of suppression can be achieved with full power .308, then the results on a 7.62x39 would be potentially even better.
     
  11. 444

    444 Member

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    Huh.
    I own an AAC M4-2000 suppressor for the AR15.
    I also own a suppressed upper in 9mm (LRM M-169)

    I think the suppressed .223 is infinitely better in every way, especially for a "SHTF" rifle.
    Firing the rifle with full power ammo, the report is about like a .22 LR rifle.
    Firing the rifle with subsonic ammo (77 grain SMK) gives you something that fires a bullet that is twice as heavy as a .22 LR and a report that is far less than a .22 LR. These subsonic rounds can be used for taking small game or for close shots requiring the absolute minimal report. Various soldiers and agents have carried suppressed .22 handguns for years. Here, you can have about the same noise level with a bullet twice as heavy. In fact, the bullet itself (77 grain SMK) is longer overall that a LOADED .22 LR round.

    My .223 suppressor is probably the most impressive suppressor I own.

    The 9mm on the other hand is fun, but that is about it.
    Limited range. Minimal power. Not all that quiet.
     
  12. beerslurpy

    beerslurpy member

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    Dave, read my post above yours. Gas system noise is a huge problem on the AK.

    Try using subsonic ammo for the 9mm. A lot of people complain that their cans suck because they are using regular supersonic ammo. Edit, I looked at LRMs site, 129 db is not very impressive for a handgun suppressor. I'll see if there were tested by silencertests.com. edit2: I looked and they did all their testing with full power supersonic loads.

    AAC is awesome, I would like to get a 762SD from them when I have finished my 45 upper project.
     
  13. 50caliber123

    50caliber123 Member

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    I love my Hi-Point 9mm carbine. It's truly great, only drawback is the magazine capacity (10rds). I zeroed and learned how to shoot it in about an hour at the range, and is accurate at 50 yards. If I need more than 10rds, I 'll resort to my MAK-90, as the S has definently hit the fan. Good loaner gun, and good quality ammunition, is not horribly expensive. I like the fact that it won't overpenetrate, it handles well and fills a niche in my shtf stock along with the MAK-90 and the .308 enfield Jungle carbine, giving me a perfect balance of close, medium, and long range.
     
  14. Brian Williams

    Brian Williams Moderator Emeritus

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    Not your typical pistol caliber carbine, but I use a Marlin 1894C in 357, It does what I need.
     
  15. pdowg881

    pdowg881 Member

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    so why do i think suppressors are illegal? I could've sworn reading that multiple places including this forum. I remeber one guy complaining how they shouldn't be illegal becuase lawmakers think its so we can silently shoot people, but he just doesn't want to disturb neighbors.

    http://www.mp5.net/info/sbsconr.htm. So machine guns are legal in NH. I'm am so damn confused now, everything I thought i knew about my states laws are blown to hell.:confused:
     
  16. byf43

    byf43 Member

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    Not exactly PRIMARY, but, Marlin 1894S and/or Winchester 94 Trapper in .44 magnum pack a pretty decent whallop on the downrange end.
     
  17. Sharpdogs

    Sharpdogs Member

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    I have a couple of pistol caliber carbines. While not the best choice in SHTF setting I would not feel under armed with most of them. My environment is very urban not a lot of 100+ fields of fire. Besides I have a M1 Garand and a few SKS's to back them up. If I was stuck in the past disaster in New Orleans I would have felt sufficiently armed with either of Marlin Camp Carbines or lever actions, heck even my Hi-Point would have done fine. I would just want enough fire power to cover butt and get to a safer place. I would not want to engage any armed gangs even with a M60.
     
  18. telomerase

    telomerase Member

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    There is a $200 Federal tax on them, and you have to go on yet another list. There may also be some state laws, I'm sure someone will jump in here with a link.

    But you're already on so many lists anyway, what difference could one more make?
     
  19. Roadwild17

    Roadwild17 Member

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    I would use a good carbine over an equal quality handgun any day, but a rifle, well "rifles are rifles, pistols are pistols" - box of truth.
     
  20. beerslurpy

    beerslurpy member

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    Telomerase, it may be some ironic consolation to know that the NFA registry is so poorly maintained that many people who own NFA weapons are not in the registry at all, or are simply stored so incorrectly that their data can never be retreived. This is why it is such a good idea to retain the tax stamps for your toys.
     
  21. 444

    444 Member

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    "Try using subsonic ammo for the 9mm."

    The LRM M169 has a gas bleed off system that allows you to shoot cheap WalMart 115 grain ammo and it will be subsonic.
    I also have a good subsonic 9mm load that I use with my AAC Evolution 9 handgun suppressor using a 147 grain bullet and Power Pistol powder. It is VERY quiet, it averages right at 1000 fps (10 shot average).

    "I looked at LRMs site, 129 db is not very impressive for a handgun suppressor."
    It isn't a handgun suppressor. It is an integrally suppressed 9mm AR15 upper: http://www.lrmfirearms.com/suppressors/m169.html
     
  22. beerslurpy

    beerslurpy member

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    Yeah, I found the page earlier. Unimpressive for a handgun suppressor is even less impressive for a rifle suppressor that doesnt have the same weight or size restrictions.

    I mean, where is the extra 9 db of noise coming from?
    It cant be bullet noise if the rounds are truly subsonic.
    It cant be action noise, because action noise should be only 120 db or so.
    It cant be gas action bleedoff because 9mm ARs are blowback operated.
    So it must be gun report noise, which means the suppressor isnt doing its job.

    Is there a flaw in my reasoning here?
     
  23. 444

    444 Member

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    I don't know.
    I can tell you a couple things though:
    Before I bought this suppressor, I read all kinds of posts about it on forums like AR15.com and several on silencertests.com.
    Everyone raved about it.

    I mentioned I also have an AAC handgun suppressor.
    IMO the handgun suppressor is quieter than the AR15 upper.

    The AR15/9mm upper's suppressor is far bigger than my handgun can.

    So, I would have to agree with you. It doesn't seem to me that the suppressor is all that effective. It is OK, but not great.

    All that being said, the LRM M169 is one of the funnest guns I have ever owned. I really enjoy the crap out of it. Ok, the suppressor isn't the absolute ultimate. It is still pretty good.
    A buddy of mine has a DeLeisle carbine. It is FAR more quiet than my 9mm upper.
    For a rough benchmark, that DeLeisle (shooting .45 ACP 230 grain ball) is about as loud as my AR15/M4-2000 firing 77 grain subsonic. Both are nearly silent. Both are more quiet than my .22 suppressors. For that matter, I think my Evo-9 is more quiet than my .22 suppressors.
     
  24. beerslurpy

    beerslurpy member

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    Awesome, I hear nothing but good stuff about AAC or their cans. I cant wait for my 45 upper to arrive so I can send it off to SRT.
     
  25. roscoe

    roscoe Member

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    Winchester Trapper in .45 Colt. 9 rounds and big holes.
     
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