Does anyone have or know a good "What to do after a self-defense shooting" "Cheat-sheet"?

[MillennialGunslinger]

I'm one of those "prepare before you need it" type of people, as I imagine many are here. I'm looking for a decent "cheat sheet/quick guide", preferably in PDF (but I imagine that it most likely would be a webpage article), to save in the Dropbox folder on my smartphone that covers what I would want to remind myself of if I'm ever involved in a self defense shooting.

What I'm looking for is basically a quick list of Do's, Dont's and basic tips that I could, in theory, review in the immediate aftermath of a self defense shooting. I'm talking pretty much after the 911 call and making sure I'm in a safe place, and ideally before the first officer arrives on scene. So pretty much maximum one letter sized page, front and back. Wallet size. I take for granted that in such a situation I'd probably be anything but coherent and fully rational, so just giving myself the chance to remember a few suggestions would probably be wise. I have something similar for car accidents, but I'd like to have something for self-defense shootings too. I'm obviously not likely to need it, but it is comforting to have nonetheless.

Does anyone know any good article, or document? More than everyone's random tips or incomplete articles, I'm looking more at something concise, reasonably complete but to the point, and printable.

Just as a note should it come up, I do have "self-defense Insurance" (CCW Safe) whose phone number and info I'd have to write in myself. Also, I do realize that this may be slightly different in every state. I'm in Florida, but I suppose there are general guidelines in any case.

Update:
For an example of a wallet sized "quick-guide", see post #44 on page 2 of this thread.

 

[Kleanbore]

Personally, I think that referring to something after the fact would not help your credibility very much, and your credibility is paramount.

Learn what you want to do in advance, and importantly, learn why.

See the stickies in the ST&T forum.

 

[MillennialGunslinger]

Personally, I think that referring to something after the fact would not help your credibility very much, and your credibility is paramount.

I'm not really sure what you mean by that. As far as credibility goes, that kinda goes both ways. Someone could say that informing the officer that you wish to cooperate, but do not wish to make statements right away, could also affect your credibility. But it's still the type of thing just about everyone recommends you not do. I would also intend to have my concealed carry coverage (lawyer) on the phone since the first instant, and whether or not that affects my credibility is the least of my concerns. And almost certainly to my benefit.

Learn what you want to do in advance, and importantly, learn why.

To the average person, who doesn't train with a firearm monthly, or much less is continuously informing themselves on self defense laws, relying on memory in a self defense shooting is probably a bad suggestion, in my opinion. I'd expect myself, in a worst case scenario, to be so nervous and agitated that trying to rely on memory seems like a bad idea. As far as me personally, I try to shoot monthly (which means I don't always shoot monthly) and I try to keep myself informed, but there are times when one simply has other priorities. I'd like to think that I'm probably more informed than the average CCW holder (most of which who don't carry), but certainly less then some/most of the people of this forum. I imagine than even for most of us here, the last time we seriously looked at what to do in the immediate aftermath of a shooting was months/years ago.

See the stickies in the ST&T forum.

Thanks. I'm looking at it now.

 

[Klint Beastwood]

Have a index card in your wallet, or saved on your notepad on your phone. Have your lawyers number and email saved. Obviously your kin or whomever to let them know of the ordeal.
Immediately after the incident, call 911 and make a general statement of shots fire and number of casualties in the proximity, hang up or dont either way stop talking. When the police show up put down the weapon have your ccw card and id available BEFORE they arrive and see you digging in your pockets. Do not make a statement, do not collect $200, do not pass go. Just go quietly with them, and let them do their investigation.
Before answering any questions during an interview, have legal representation. 90% of the times, most LEO organizations arent going to bust your balls, but...you really dont want to say anything that will be used against you...which can be anything. Try to squash the investigation at the investigation stage. You don't want to be wrapped up in the legal system if it goes that far...and that can very well depend on your area. All 50 states are different, as per each county, city, etc. So this is a very..blanket answer.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

See - http://dailycaller.com/2017/03/20/massad-ayoob-5-things-to-know-after-a-defensive-shooting/

I may disagree with him in other areas but Massad Ayoob is the gold standard for legal advice in regard to self-defense shootings.

 

[JeffG]

This may help...

https://www.nrafamily.org/articles/2017/6/12/after-a-defensive-shooting-what-to-do/

 

[reddog81]

Personally, I think that referring to something after the fact would not help your credibility very much, and your credibility is paramount.

Learn what you want to do in advance, and importantly, learn why.

See the stickies in the ST&T forum.

I was thinking along these same lines. Pulling out a cheat sheet that goes over what to do in case you shoot someone kind of looks like premeditation. I would expect the sheet to be used as evidence and anything on it has the potential to be used against you.

 

[browningguy]

Report it, call a lawyer, then just shut up.

 

[MillennialGunslinger]

Pulling out a cheat sheet that goes over what to do in case you shoot someone kind of looks like premeditation. I would expect the sheet to be used as evidence and anything on it has the potential to be used against you.

Only as much as having self-defense insurance implies that I "intended" to shoot someone. Or taking shooting or self defense courses for that matter. You're a lot more likely to get yourself in trouble after a shooting for screwing things up for yourself, then you are for having a document like that on your phone. In my case, it would be simply a file to scroll through on my phone before police arrive, and to brush up on reading once a year or so. I'm not concerned with how that will look at all. Perhaps printing out a whole sheet to keep in your wallet might look odd, but just having it on your phone doesn't. In either case, if the case falls down to that single issue, you were screwed to begin with. It's much like the eternal debate on modified weapons getting you in trouble. It's possible in theory but in practice any decent defense lawyer would laugh it off if it came to that.

The mere fact that there are web articles solely on this issue, like the ones linked above, indicates that it is a perfectly reasonable thing to be aware and concerned about.

This may help...

https://www.nrafamily.org/articles/2017/6/12/after-a-defensive-shooting-what-to-do/

Thanks

Here is another good link:
CCW Safe – 10 Things You Should Do Or Consider After A Self Defense Shooting.

 

[GRIZ22]

See - http://dailycaller.com/2017/03/20/massad-ayoob-5-things-to-know-after-a-defensive-shooting/

I may disagree with him in other areas but Massad Ayoob is the gold standard for legal advice in regard to self-defense shootings.

What Ayoob says is good advice. Too many people think you should say nothing. That can get you in trobule.

 

[CoalTrain49]

1) Get some insurance.

2) Follow their advice.

Not much easier than that.

 

[Solomonson]

1.) Make sure the person you defended yourself from is down and remains down. Same for their accomplices.

2.) Holster your firearm.

3.) Call 911 and report the incident saying as little as possible.

4.) Call a lawyer whose number is already in your phone.

5.) Keep your mouth shut.

No notes needed...

 

[Old Guy]

So much of advice is based on macho bull S. But when a visitor from Dayton, Ohio, who had picked up his SUV, half an hour b/4 he ran into me, head on! Even though I was belted in, drove a good, big 8 cylinder Jeep? The Parra medics had to take me to the Hospital (their rules, Blood Pressure through the roof.)

So I can only imagine where that B/P would be, after putting two 147g 9mm into a fellow's thoracic area!
Said fellow being a violent criminal!
First call to my NRA Lawyer, second to 911. pop a pill, that sits in a wee screw container, on my key ring.
Inform the Police/Parra Medics of my heart condition, try to calm down?
Call my Wife (if she is not with me, she normally is) "I am not hurt, injured!" The start of the conversation.

 

[Tirod]

It would seem there are two opinions about everything. Talk? Don't talk to the cops. Holster? Don't holster. Make sure the perp is down? Might just see him run away regardless.

Because the incident may include variables you cannot predict, there will be no hard and fast rules. This is why you need to study up and understand things. It may not be just a draw and shoot incident, it may be a draw, shoot, hide, manuever out of the kill zone, and then make your way to the car.

What then? Don't tell the cops about the other three shooters you last saw holed up in a jewelry store or bank? Or, tell them all about the spot on head shots you performed?

As for nervous, maybe, but some of us may be in the throes of anger that someone would be so stupid as to pull a gun on family and friends. Others may well be thinking about other incidents they suffered in war or an inner city, and how this went down just the same.

Or, caring for a loved one who is down and bleeding.

While the hip pocket list might sound like a nice idea, nobody whips those out in the aftermath of battle in Iraq - at best a short cheatsheet of sitrep lines to push up the chain on the radio. I don't think I will need a check list to remember to use the perps shoelaces and belt to use for restraints if I choose to get close enough - and there is also his/her potential wounds. Stupid as some humans can be, caring for their wounds isn't off the table.

There is also the assumption that the event will be the first step in a long drawn out legal process that takes years to suffer thru and that every action and word may be under intense scrutiny. A lot of internet lawyers who have never seen someone point a gun at them will state it's an absolute guarantee. And yet we read of incidents where the officer on the scene determines things quickly. It may be they know the perp and justice has been exacted.

The point that a less well trained carrier of firearms may need something to fall back on after the incident is a good example of what we get into choosing to carry a firearm. It seems a simple decision looking back - "I will carry a gun to protect myself and my loved ones!" As you walk down that rose garden path, tho, you encounter the rest of the entanglements - when, how, and where to carry, what's legal, etc. And now, the issue of what to do after comes up.

It's not all that easy now, is it? We try to caution those getting into this that it's not a clear cut situation and their are a lot of complexities. Here it is - there is no quick cheat sheet of what to do.

Pick up one of Mas Ayoob's books on the subject and then get back to us. We'd all like to know, cause none of us has found the short list that covers it all yet.

 

[JONWILL]

I am going to qualify my experience. I have none and hope I never do.

IMHO. Don't say anything. Put your gun on the ground and wait for the police.

Call your lawyer before making any statement.

Just watch the show "48 Hours". The guys who talk without an Attorney usually get themselves in trouble. An experienced investigator can talk you in circles

 

[MillennialGunslinger]

Just watch the show "48 Hours". The guys who talk without an Attorney usually get themselves in trouble.

Haha, everyone recommending books when I could have just watched a TV show! Why didn't we just start there? JK

Because the incident may include variables you cannot predict, there will be no hard and fast rules.

Thanks for the response. Pretty well thought out and informative.

I'd say that sure there are "hard and fast rules", but that they are just that and don't excuse one from being flexible depending on the situation. No quick guide is a substitute for actual training and formation, but I'd also say that no training is permanent so being able to fall back on something is wise. I agree that it's unlikely to remember, or be willing, to pull something like that out. But it isn't impossible and it would almost certainly be beneficial. Nonetheless it is worth pointing out that part of having such a document is being able to consult it once a year or so and keep it fresh. I have read quite a few of M. Ayoob's books in the past, but that was at least 3 or 4 years ago and let's just say that I'm happy that no one is going to test me on it. Same for the "Florida Firearms Law, Use and Ownership book which is the bible on firearm self-defense law here in Florida. The thing is just that. No one remembers a 3 or 4 hundred page legal book by hard for too long. Of course, I still have a general idea of the Do's and Dont's, but I'm a stuctured type of person that is humble enough to trust documents more than my memory. I just generally keep quick guides for things like that, and they tend to come in handy and you don't risk forgetting them with time.

Regarding emotional state, if psychology can teach us one thing it's that predicting your own behavior or mindset in an extreme situation is worthless. And because of that, I'd rather consider the worst state and if I'm less altered, well all the better. After all, if we fight about carrying reloads or not, or if a 9mm double stack is enough, we are the type of people that prepares for the worst.

It would seem there are two opinions about everything. Talk? Don't talk to the cops. Holster? Don't holster. Make sure the perp is down? Might just see him run away regardless.

Too true haha. That seems pretty common in just about all threads. I'm glad to see I'm not the only one to think that.

While the hip pocket list might sound like a nice idea, nobody whips those out in the aftermath of battle in Iraq - at best a short cheatsheet of sitrep lines to push up the chain on the radio.

I'd like to think that they'd have all that more or less fresh, plus I don't think getting sued is at the top of their priorities. For good or bad it would be the sole purpose of this one. It's a whole different scenario when your minding your own business just putting some gas on your way home, and then all hell breaks loose. Maybe I didn't make it clear, but I asked this from the "don't screw yourself legally" point of view, so it's more on how to interact with responding officers and what to keep in mind. I never considered it to have anything to do with anything like "tying up the perpetrator with shoe laces". It's more "Remember you are the victim, act like one, even if the responding officers joke around (Ex. they knew the perpetrator, repeat felon, he got what was coming to him) or are more indiferent, or excited" (CCW Safe). Not in those words, but that idea.

The point that a less well trained carrier of firearms may need something to fall back on after the incident is a good example of what we get into choosing to carry a firearm.

Maybe I misunderstood, but I'd almost tend to say the opposite. The well trained firearm carrier is the one that thinks and plans for this in advance, and as such doesn't end up needing it precisely because s/he already had it. Wanting a quick list isn't because your less trained, it's because you are. The mere fact of researching and consulting a priori something like this is what makes you actually internalize it.

Here it is - there is no quick cheat sheet of what to do. ... We'd all like to know, cause none of us has found the short list that covers it all yet.

Well, seeing as I didn't find anything like I was looking for, I'm writing one for myself just to keep in my Firearm Hobby folder so I can review it whenever I feel the need. Of course it won't be a short list that covers it all. It will just be a short list that reminds me the few things that I would like to remind myself, should it ever come to that. I'm just a big fan of PDF quick guides for reviewing things. I'll post it once it's done if anyone wants to give an opinion.

Thanks for the insight.

 

[MachIVshooter]

Personally, I think that referring to something after the fact would not help your credibility very much, and your credibility is paramount.

I'm not really sure what you mean by that. As far as credibility goes, that kinda goes both ways.

He means that being so well prepared for the civil/legal aftermath of a SD shooting could easily be perceived as you were looking for a fight.

As far as what to actually do, there are so may variables that a pre-conceived play-by-play is just silly. I'd go with a pretty simple "plan"

1) make sure the threat is no longer a threat (duh)

2) make sure you won't be perceived as a threat by other citizens or LEOs

3) once you've reasonably deduced that you are no longer in immediate danger, call 911

4) unless you're actively keeping the threat under control at gun point, I'd holster your weapon. Under most circumstances, this would be a better idea than clearing it and placing it somewhere not under your immediate control. Responding oficers will most likely order you to submit in some way and pat you down anyway, so just keep your hands in plain sight and communicate to them that you're not a threat and that you have a holstered firearm.

5) when LE shows up, you need to talk to them, but you don't want to have diarrhea of the mouth. Following a traumatic experience, very few people can offer highly detailed and lucid recounts while they're still "in the moment", and your brain ain't quite working right during the adrenaline crash, either. If you watch videos or listen to audio of people talking at length following a crisis, their statements will often be disjointed and sometimes self-contradictory. Give them the pertinent details so they may begin their investigation and interviews with some insight as to why you felt justified in using deadly force, but I'd suggest waiting until you've calmed down and had a chance to collect yourself before you spill your guts.

 

[BSA1]

One thing that I see rarely mentioned is using your cellphone to document the crime scene. I am surprised that a master expert like Ayoob fails to discuss it.

This is very simple and much more reliable evidence. Take your cellphone, set the camera to video and do a very slow 360 degree circle around you. This will document all of the people who are present and perhaps, more importantly, who were not there or where not in position to actually see what they claim too.

Witnesses can disappear fast especially when they don't want to get involved. Eyewitness testimony has been proven many times to be unreliable.

 

[MillennialGunslinger]

He means that being so well prepared for the civil/legal aftermath of a SD shooting could easily be perceived as you were looking for a fight

I understand the reasoning. Hypothetically, sure. Does carrying a firearm with HP around also mean I'm looking for a fight and intend to kill? Those are things that are so easy to disprove that it's not worth being concerned with. Plus, I'll have this totally unrelated thread to point at. Or maybe that is suspicous, too

Thanks for the other points, thats along the lines of what I had in mind.

One thing that I see rarely mentioned is using your cellphone to document the crime scene

Good point and worth keeping in mind, but I do wonder how practical it might be in practice. Now if you have a friend or family member around, that absolutely should be the sole thing they are doing. Especially injuries before they get cleaned up. Regarding practicality, I say this because you will most likely be on the phone with 911, and I personally would be calling my self defense insurance, so trying to make any worthwhile video document simultaneously probably won't work. But I'm glad you brought it up. I've never seen that mentioned before, as obvious as it sounds.

 

[Jack B.]

Report it, call a lawyer, then just shut up.

That's what I've been told buy all the CCW instructors that I've talked to.

 

[MachIVshooter]

I understand the reasoning. Hypothetically, sure. Does carrying a firearm with HP around also mean I'm looking for a fight and intend to kill? Those are things that are so easy to disprove that it's not worth being concerned with. Plus, I'll have this totally unrelated thread to point at. Or maybe that is suspicous, too

There are levels of preparedness that are considered reasonable, those that suggest you're anticipating, and then there's the degree that strongly implies you're wanting something to happen. It's a matter of what is generally considered or could be construed as prudent. Being exceedingly "prepared" for something with an absolutely minuscule probability is highly suggestive that you're either delusional, or that you're hoping to be "put to the test".

Carrying a basic self-defense sidearm is not everyone's cup of tea, but it's understandable to most and a common enough practice that it doesn't seem "extreme". But carrying a full sized primary with spare mags plus a BUG and wearing soft armor as a private citizen screams wanna-be (cop/soldier/vigilante) to "normal" folks, and absent very exculpatory video evidence, good chance that even a legitimate SD shoot could end up with you charged with a very serious crime. Being very well prepared on the legal front may not be quite as incriminating as playing operator, but is still gonna come across as strange to LEOs who expect someone to be very shaken and confused following a shooting.

There are very few situations/circumstances in life under which you are not best served by having all your "i"s dotted and "t"s crossed; the legal side of self defense is one of them. It may seem counter-intuitive, but remember that you're dealing with other human beings, which encompasses all of their emotions, perception, judgement, past experience, etc. When those aspects weigh so heavily in the outcome, and having all of your ducks in a row comes across as atypical, you're gonna want to be standing on some middle ground, somewhere between clueless idiot with a gun and totally cool, calculating professional. Basically, you need to be seen as very average.

 

[Jack B.]

I have a membership in CCW Safe. This is what it says on the back of their membership card. It gives their 24 hour emergency hotline number and under that it say's " If you are involved in a self defense shooting Identify yourself as the victim of the attack. Inform responding police that you have an attorney, and you will be happy to cooperate BUT only in the presence of your attorney".

 

[hdwhit]

Millenial Gunslinger wrote:
I'm looking for a decent "cheat sheet/quick guide", preferably in PDF...

I don't know of a "Do this after you shoot someone" checklist. And I would certainly be wary of being seen walking around the crime scene reading such a list off my cell phone when the police arrived because of the impression it could create in the investigating officer's mind. Several people have already posted on the fact that you don't want to create the impression in the investigator's mind that you were "looking for trouble" and I would be afraid such a checklist might create that impression.

The Legal forum on this site has several good articles on self-defense shooting and the aftermath. Reading those and committing them to memory would probably be more helpful that a checklist you haven't gone through since you downloaded it years before.

And as far as "don't say anything", several of the posts in the Legal section suggest such blanket advice may not always be the best course of action. In a self-defense shooting you will admit to having shot (and possibly killed) someone. You will then plead that the shooting was justified. It may be necessary to get certain facts on the record as soon as possible in order to support your justification defense, so staying silent may not be the best thing to do. Again, there are a number of posts in the Legal section that discuss this in detail.

 

[hdwhit]

Millenial Gunslinger wrote:
Does carrying a firearm with HP around also mean I'm looking for a fight and intend to kill?

Maybe.

But stop engaging in sophistry.

The issue is not what is/was going on in your mind, but what the police investigators, prosecutors, judge and jury believe was going on in your mind in the moments before you decided to shoot.

It is those beliefs that lead the police to conclude you were looking for a reason to shoot, prosecutors to conclude the act was not justified and thus charges are warranted, and the judge/jury to think that you are the thug they need to be protected from.

 

[scaatylobo]

I'm one of those "prepare before you need it" type of people, as I imagine many are here. I'm looking for a decent "cheat sheet/quick guide", preferably in PDF (but I imagine that it most likely would be a webpage article), to save in the Dropbox folder on my smartphone that covers what I would want to remind myself of if I'm ever involved in a self defense shooting.

What I'm looking for is basically a quick list of Do's, Dont's and basic tips that I could, in theory, review in the immediate aftermath of a self defense shooting. I'm talking pretty much after the 911 call and making sure I'm in a safe place, and ideally before the first officer arrives on scene. So pretty much maximum one letter sized page, front and back. Wallet size. I take for granted that in such a situation I'd probably be anything but coherent and fully rational, so just giving myself the chance to remember a few suggestions would probably be wise. I have something similar for car accidents, but I'd like to have something for self-defense shootings too. I'm obviously not likely to need it, but it is comforting to have nonetheless.

Does anyone know any good article, or document? More than everyone's random tips or incomplete articles, I'm looking more at something concise, reasonably complete but to the point, and printable.

Just as a note should it come up, I do have "self-defense Insurance" (CCW Safe) whose phone number and info I'd have to write in myself. Also, I do realize that this may be slightly different in every state. I'm in Florida, but I suppose there are general guidelines in any case.

Being a retired cop,I am POSITIVE that my view is not that of many on here.

I see that if you just say nothing, you will stand a better chance of getting arrested,you might need to say 'something' that justifies your need to use DPF.

I can see far too many instances where either saying nothing,OR saying something can be a real problem.

So, my answer is to TRAIN for the aftermath of a confrontation that involves any and ALL use of force.

That "training" should be verbal as well as you actually train with your tools of S/D.[ gun etc ].

Since there is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY we could ever know what will transpire = we cannot have a pat answer for this issue.

Train for the aftermath as if your life,house,marriage,and job ALL depend on what you do ----- or do not say.

The video is a GREAT idea = if you first call 9/11 AND try to save the life of the perp you just shot .

Better to have another [ if at all possible ] take that video AND get names from any and all witnesses [ see,that will require you to train to do just that ]