32winspl
Member
Do Not Use FMJ's. They overpenetrate. Use whatever your local cops use. Make sure you shoot a hundred or so to make sure they function reliably in your gun.
Does anyone NOT use expensive hollowpoint ammo in their defensive handguns?
- Thread starter bdjansen
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opto_isolator
Member
- Joined
- Aug 15, 2006
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- 49
I have an idea - how about you just use bullets!
sm
member
Glenn ,
Free is good. I like Free.
Maybe we need a Free vs Not-Free vs Expensive Thread.
*grin*
Free is good. I like Free.
Maybe we need a Free vs Not-Free vs Expensive Thread.
*grin*
32winspl
Member
AZ Rebel, Yes. All (over .25 or maybe .32) fmj's overpenetrate. They do very little damage internally, and exit the body, endangering anyone downrange.
No, not all police departments use the same caliber or round. That's why I said to call and ask what your local pd uses. If your local PD uses Rem Golden Sabers, use those... if they use Hydra-Shocks, use those... I said to use what your local Police use so that after the shooting, your local District Attourney can't accuse you of using "questionable" ammo. You use the same ammo as your local cops for the same reasons that they do.... 1, it's effective; 2, it will be an effective round, and not leave the City open to lawsuits due to it's being open to post-shooting lawsuits.
Mr AzRebel, call your local Police Dept and ask. I'll bet that there isn't a police Department anywhere in the entire United States that issues fmj's to their officers! Not one!
You sir, missed most of the point of my posting. Who cares what the Cops are using in Portland Maine if you're involved in a shooting in Portland Oregon? The District Attorney where you live is going to compare you to the Cops where you live. How can he accuse you of using Super Man-Killer ammunition when you defended your life using the same stuff that your local Cops use?
No, not all local PD's use the same stuff. For that matter, there is no ONE RIGHT LOAD.
But yes, sometimes there are good blanket generalizations. And a good one is, DO NOT USE FULL METAL JACKETED AMMO AS DEFENCE AMMO!!!
Robb
No, not all police departments use the same caliber or round. That's why I said to call and ask what your local pd uses. If your local PD uses Rem Golden Sabers, use those... if they use Hydra-Shocks, use those... I said to use what your local Police use so that after the shooting, your local District Attourney can't accuse you of using "questionable" ammo. You use the same ammo as your local cops for the same reasons that they do.... 1, it's effective; 2, it will be an effective round, and not leave the City open to lawsuits due to it's being open to post-shooting lawsuits.
Mr AzRebel, call your local Police Dept and ask. I'll bet that there isn't a police Department anywhere in the entire United States that issues fmj's to their officers! Not one!
You sir, missed most of the point of my posting. Who cares what the Cops are using in Portland Maine if you're involved in a shooting in Portland Oregon? The District Attorney where you live is going to compare you to the Cops where you live. How can he accuse you of using Super Man-Killer ammunition when you defended your life using the same stuff that your local Cops use?
No, not all local PD's use the same stuff. For that matter, there is no ONE RIGHT LOAD.
But yes, sometimes there are good blanket generalizations. And a good one is, DO NOT USE FULL METAL JACKETED AMMO AS DEFENCE AMMO!!!
Robb
Depending on the caliber and the gun, I sometimes use FMJ.
For example, I don't think JHP makes a big difference in terms of expansion in .380 ACP out of my Kel-Tec P3AT, so I carry FMJ in my P3AT b/c penetration is more of a concern for me out of a 2.8" barrel.
With respect to JHP, I actually watched a Dateline or 20/20 where a guy shot and killed a man who attacked him in the woods. The single point that the jury hung up on the most when they sent the law-abiding man who defended himself with a firearm to prison was the fact that he used JHP "cop killer bullets." They interviewed the jurors afterward, and they really hung up on that point.
Clearly, JHP is actually SAFER for everyone else in that it penetrates less and is much less likely to come out the other side of the BG and hit an innocent passerby. But ignorant juries don't know this, and the above-mentioned gentleman's attorney did not mention this either. He made no counter argument to the "cop killer bullets" argument of the prosecution. Just some food for thought.
That said, if your local LEOs carry it, it seems you'd have a pretty easy argument for carrying it.
For example, I don't think JHP makes a big difference in terms of expansion in .380 ACP out of my Kel-Tec P3AT, so I carry FMJ in my P3AT b/c penetration is more of a concern for me out of a 2.8" barrel.
With respect to JHP, I actually watched a Dateline or 20/20 where a guy shot and killed a man who attacked him in the woods. The single point that the jury hung up on the most when they sent the law-abiding man who defended himself with a firearm to prison was the fact that he used JHP "cop killer bullets." They interviewed the jurors afterward, and they really hung up on that point.
Clearly, JHP is actually SAFER for everyone else in that it penetrates less and is much less likely to come out the other side of the BG and hit an innocent passerby. But ignorant juries don't know this, and the above-mentioned gentleman's attorney did not mention this either. He made no counter argument to the "cop killer bullets" argument of the prosecution. Just some food for thought.
That said, if your local LEOs carry it, it seems you'd have a pretty easy argument for carrying it.
kungfuhippie
Member
People need to go to the box o truth. HP ammo also overpenetrates, just not as much. Use it for improved stopping power not because it will penetrate less. I suggest efmj They feed as reliably as FMJ but expand more often than HP or soft point. clothing won't clog them.
jpwilly
Member
Your going to get every answer in the book here but personally I carry Federal Premium SD ammo (Hydroshok bullet). But I have run WWB and Rem JHP's with no trouble...45's don't have to expand to work! That's why Big Bores work so well and why I like 45ACP so much!
Texas Colt
Member
I reload all my practice ammo including JHP practice ammo that duplicates the factory loads. However, my carry ammo is all factory. Speer Gold Dot JHPs in 38 Special +P, 9mm, and 45 ACP.
Cato the Younger
Member
- Joined
- May 6, 2006
- Messages
- 130
I use 38 Sp LSWCHP +P
In my revovlers, and Speer GHDP in my 9mm autoloader. I figure those rounds are reliable, and will work well for their intended purposes- the 38 special load has a long track record.
In my revovlers, and Speer GHDP in my 9mm autoloader. I figure those rounds are reliable, and will work well for their intended purposes- the 38 special load has a long track record.
32winspl said:
And where, Sir, do you document this "fact"? Or is that an opinion? (Also, please note that you just countered your own statement that "All fmj's overpenetrate!)
32winspl said:
I believe that there are many enlightened Police Departments that issue or proscribe efficient handguns and ammunition. But there are also many that issue or use weapons and ammunition bought for different reasons then efficiency. To make a blanket statement whatever the local PD use is "effective" is just wrong.
32winspl said:
And where, Sir, do you document this "fact"? Or is that another opinion? Even if it was true - does that prove your statement... I hardly think so. Also, do you really think that your local PD knows what ammunition is used by every PD in the US?
You are probably not familiar with a round called the .45ACP which, in it's FMJ version fires a 230 Grain Bullet at 830 Ft/Sec. It was designed by J.M. Browning to be fired in a 1911 Government Model Pistol after the Thompson-Lagarde tests in 1904. This round, because of its large cross section and relatively slow speed, has proven to be an efficient stopping cartridge with the added bonus of feeding reliably in most pistols. The hollowpoint round has never proven to feed as well as hardball and has the added problem that bullets just don't expand repeatably at pistol velocities. There is also the fact that layers of clothing may be detrimental to the hollowpoint bullet's performance.
.45 FMJ Is a viable choice for a defence pistol - you may choose different for your own reasons but to rule it out with a blanket statement is just plain wrong.
sm
member
AZ_Rebel,
Great Post!
32winspl,
Projectiles do strange things.
Even from shotguns.
It does not matter matter what a gun, barrel, choke, box or ammo says. Nor does it matter what some projectile (pellet, buckshot, slug, or bullet) did/does for someone else from their gun, or in a situation for them.
Too many variables in Life.
Life forms also do not know they are "supposed" to react to a projectile a certain way, and often times they do not.
How many deer get hit with a loading from a rifle and run off?
Too many folks on this Forum, and others, have Experiences. Some are Nurses, Doctors, X-Ray, LEO, Police, EMT, and some have pulled the triggers and some have been the victims.
I personally have seen, when I worked in a OR, the .22 short kill, and the patient live that stuck a 4" .357 revolver in his mouth and pulled the trigger on a .357 load.
The fellow cussing and carrying on having been shot with a 00 buckshot load, and lived.
Another fellow, with best recall 14 gun shot wounds, and we had no idea what he had been shot with, much less type of bullet , until we removed them.
Best recall, loadings were from .380 , 38spl, .357, 9mm and .45ACP, and most were (if not all) FMJ.
Guns are not Magic Talismans, and there is no Holy Grail on gun, platform of gun, ammunition either.
Life is hard.
When it is your time to die, you die.
It does not matter how many hours of training, how much ammunition, how big a gun, or how many guns.
Grim Reaper always wins, eventually.
The trick to this journey called life, is to take prudent steps along this journey to stay safe, and put off arriving at the final destination as long as possible.
Great Post!
32winspl,
Projectiles do strange things.
Even from shotguns.
It does not matter matter what a gun, barrel, choke, box or ammo says. Nor does it matter what some projectile (pellet, buckshot, slug, or bullet) did/does for someone else from their gun, or in a situation for them.
Too many variables in Life.
Life forms also do not know they are "supposed" to react to a projectile a certain way, and often times they do not.
How many deer get hit with a loading from a rifle and run off?
Too many folks on this Forum, and others, have Experiences. Some are Nurses, Doctors, X-Ray, LEO, Police, EMT, and some have pulled the triggers and some have been the victims.
I personally have seen, when I worked in a OR, the .22 short kill, and the patient live that stuck a 4" .357 revolver in his mouth and pulled the trigger on a .357 load.
The fellow cussing and carrying on having been shot with a 00 buckshot load, and lived.
Another fellow, with best recall 14 gun shot wounds, and we had no idea what he had been shot with, much less type of bullet , until we removed them.
Best recall, loadings were from .380 , 38spl, .357, 9mm and .45ACP, and most were (if not all) FMJ.
Guns are not Magic Talismans, and there is no Holy Grail on gun, platform of gun, ammunition either.
Life is hard.
When it is your time to die, you die.
It does not matter how many hours of training, how much ammunition, how big a gun, or how many guns.
Grim Reaper always wins, eventually.
The trick to this journey called life, is to take prudent steps along this journey to stay safe, and put off arriving at the final destination as long as possible.
Lonestar49
Member
Yep, FMJ only, in one gun..
...
And that would be my Sig P232 SL 380, as I only use 95gr FMJ for range and HD/SD loads.. only.
Based on penetration values vs the same weight in JHP..
Ls
...
And that would be my Sig P232 SL 380, as I only use 95gr FMJ for range and HD/SD loads.. only.
Based on penetration values vs the same weight in JHP..
Ls
littlegator
Member
I'm more of a bullet type over bullet placement person myself. That's why I use explsive rounds. As long as I hit within 5 yards of my intended target with these new Federal Tactical High Explosive Ninja Pants Wearing Full Dynamite Jacket Gold Plated rounds, I'll win the day.
KBintheSLC
Member
I carry 124gr +P Remington Golden Saber's in my Glock 26, and I put 124gr +P Gold Dot's in my wifes Sig P239. Both rounds are very good but the Gold dots are better at consistent expansion.
I think ball ammo is fine though. Actually, thick clothing can make JHP act just like FMJ. I personally pick the premium stuff because of more reliable primers, not because of expansion.
Oh yea, if you use a barrel less than 4" long, you should use +P if you carry JHP. In short barrels, the +P is necessary to get the bullet up to the proper velocity for good expansion. If you use ball, +P really doesn't matter.
I think ball ammo is fine though. Actually, thick clothing can make JHP act just like FMJ. I personally pick the premium stuff because of more reliable primers, not because of expansion.
Oh yea, if you use a barrel less than 4" long, you should use +P if you carry JHP. In short barrels, the +P is necessary to get the bullet up to the proper velocity for good expansion. If you use ball, +P really doesn't matter.
SM-
Are you saying the the fellow who'd been shot 14 times was shot with all 5 of the different calibers you listed? If so, that's incredible. Why did so many people shoot him? I would love to hear that story! It might also be edifying for the rest of us if you tell us where all those wounds were.
Are you a doctor or a nurse?
What happened in the case of the guy who tried to kill himself with the .357? I would like to hear more about these cases.
THANKS!
Are you saying the the fellow who'd been shot 14 times was shot with all 5 of the different calibers you listed? If so, that's incredible. Why did so many people shoot him? I would love to hear that story! It might also be edifying for the rest of us if you tell us where all those wounds were.
Are you a doctor or a nurse?
What happened in the case of the guy who tried to kill himself with the .357? I would like to hear more about these cases.
THANKS!
jjohnson
Member
Hollow Points, but not the really pricey ones.
Well.... I consider that if you're going to carry, you may as well carry something that's actually lethal, so I do carry factory loaded hollowpoints.
I don't have major favorites, and I shoot/carry quite a few calibers. I rather like the Winchester Silvertips for .44 Special (an underrated pocket caliber if ever there was one) and .45ACP. I don't buy the most expensive premium defense specialty ammo, partly because I do shoot a lot and believe you should shoot what you carry. If I shot only the stuff that comes in boxes of 20 or blisterpacked 6 at a time, I'd be broke in a week. I'm a lot more likely to buy the spendy stuff on pocket calibers I don't like to carry, that is, if the caliber is on the weak side, I just might pay for the top shelf stuff. I could see doing that for my Makarov in .380. But generally, what I carry will launch a .44 or .45 slug, and I guess I'm relying a little on size and energy.
I reload a lot, but I've noticed that even with experience, the factory makes 'em more reliably than I do, and I don't ever want to explain to a jury what an evil person I am for actually manufacturing the ammo I had to use in a fight... so my bottom line is I stick with the name brands I'm comfortable with, buy their better hollowpoints, but I don't buy the specialty stuff.
Well.... I consider that if you're going to carry, you may as well carry something that's actually lethal, so I do carry factory loaded hollowpoints.
I don't have major favorites, and I shoot/carry quite a few calibers. I rather like the Winchester Silvertips for .44 Special (an underrated pocket caliber if ever there was one) and .45ACP. I don't buy the most expensive premium defense specialty ammo, partly because I do shoot a lot and believe you should shoot what you carry. If I shot only the stuff that comes in boxes of 20 or blisterpacked 6 at a time, I'd be broke in a week. I'm a lot more likely to buy the spendy stuff on pocket calibers I don't like to carry, that is, if the caliber is on the weak side, I just might pay for the top shelf stuff. I could see doing that for my Makarov in .380. But generally, what I carry will launch a .44 or .45 slug, and I guess I'm relying a little on size and energy.
I reload a lot, but I've noticed that even with experience, the factory makes 'em more reliably than I do, and I don't ever want to explain to a jury what an evil person I am for actually manufacturing the ammo I had to use in a fight... so my bottom line is I stick with the name brands I'm comfortable with, buy their better hollowpoints, but I don't buy the specialty stuff.
Sylvan-Forge
Member
I generally use handloaded FMJ flat-points or wadcutters.
Jeff F
Member
Carry ammo is not real expensive. .38 spl and .357 mag is Remington umc, 125gr jktd hollow point. Cheep enough that I can practice with it regally and its accurate enough. My .45 acp is loaded with ball. It makes big holes.
Katana8869
Member
- Joined
- Oct 1, 2006
- Messages
- 401
+1. Best post in this thread. I feel that the most important thing to have is a service caliber gun loaded with ammunition that is reliable in that particular firearm.
I also prefer to have ammo in my pistols that I can actually practice with. It may not be the ultra-cool high dollar BMW class ammo that makes me look oh, so cool on the gun forums, but I can be certain that I have trained with it enough to put my rounds where they need to be.
All of my pistols, with the exception of my PT145 are loaded with either Remington UMC jhp's or WWB jhp's. The PT145 is loaded with UMC ball ammo because I want to make sure that the bullet coming out of that short .45 barrel penetrates deep enough.
'Course I'm just a backwoods Florida Cracker so I suppose that automatically eliminates any possibility of a coolness rating anyway!
Lonestar49
Member
Ok then.. LOL
...
+2 then for the second best post reply within this thread..
Ls
...
+2 then for the second best post reply within this thread..
Ls
351 WINCHESTER
Member
In my .38 snub I usually carry h/c wadcutters.
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