Discussion in 'Strategies, Tactics, and Training' started by vincyr, Mar 29, 2020.
really bad idea. Am I just being paranoid?
Carrying an empty gun is not paranoid.
BUT having the belief that you will have time to access AND load that empty gun is ------ silly.
If the only gun you feel safe carrying FULLY LOADED is your snub = carry that,please.
2. Do you practice drawing the gun and dry firing it from your pocket?
3. Have you researched the shooting reports that indicate civilians are way behind the curve with unchambered guns? Just google it.
4. Have you taking part in any realistic training to see how unchambered carry will play out?
Bottom line is that it is a bad idea. Your fears can be assuaged through practice and training.
No cliches about Israeli assassins please.
without a round in the chamber would make me uneasy.
All you've got there is a VERY short club.
anyway, that discussion aside, i recently got a taurus spectrum and keltec p32 because i see their value as pocket ccw pieces, which i need more now due to my locales. a snubbie is simply unpocketable for me. i carry these semiautos with one in the pipe. i am more apprehensive with the semiautos, which is better than being nonchalant, when it comes to weapons handling. it helps me to say out loud the cardinal rules of firearms safety when i make ready and make safe my new to me semiauto ccw pistols.
another thought, revolver guys shouldn’t follow advice of semiauto pistol guys when choosing one: e.g. the spectrum, with its long trigger, feels like a beloved s&w 642 ccw to me, so i like it. a sig p238, which is a great shooter, is very unrevolver like in its manual of arms, thus i’m not a fan.
We know the dangers of carrying an empty chamber. You're in trouble in a gand to hand situation if you have to chamber a round.
You should reevaluate your selection of guns.
Find a gun that suits you that is drop safe and has a trigger safety, or a grip safety, or even a manual safety is better than an empty chamber. Rely on your holster to protect your trigger. You may have to go iwb holster to be comfortable.
Perhaps you are a revolver guy. I am.
What would that do for me?
You could try studying the P32 mechanism to see if it helps your comfort level (if you haven't already done so). If you can't get comfortable with your P32, I'd have to agree with others and suggest going back to the revolver, or a different pistol.
AND watch here the firearm is pointed at all times; finger off the trigger; and keep clothing, etc. out of the holster.
Also, if the gun starts to drop, do NOT try to catch it.
Short answer is Yes, you are.
I myself have no issues with one in the pipe but I respect it. If you find yourself too uneasy for this the I would suggest another manual of arms. It’s not that anybody else is right or you are wrong it’s what is right for you.
No matter what or how you carry use a proper holster.
Take care and shoot safe.
If you aren’t comfortable carrying it with a round in the chamber, then I would respectfully suggest you shouldn’t be carrying it. Any carry gun should inspire 100% confidence.
That said, as others have pointed out, a proper holster (fit and trigger coverage) makes it absolutely as safe as a holster on your belt. Don’t be cheap when it comes to the holster.
One note: Regardless of the gun and holster, I don’t believe we should ever carry anything in that pocket except the gun - no keys, knives, chewing gum, etc. The only danger I can possibly envision from pocket carry is when there is another object that could possibly find its way into the holster and cause a negligent discharge.
The immediate solution is easy: carry the snubbie.
The longer solution is to practice, study, and find a weapon you are comfortable carrying loaded. Carrying an unloaded gun adds so much time to your presentation that it's destructive.
In .32ACP, the only "heavier-triggered" options in the real pocket class are the Beretta 3032 Tomcat (a bit bulky), and the Seecamp (a bit pricey.)
For what it's worth, I do pocket-carry the P32, and have pretty much since 2011, when I got it. I carry it with a round chambered. I've also pocket-carried my Taurus TCP, which has a similar trigger action, but not nearly as often. I'm former LE, was heavily-trained with the DA/SA revolver, and have been involved with handguns since 1987. I'm confident in responsible, chamber-loaded, pocket carry. I hope this helps assure you.
I will. Unless you are exceptionally well trained and maintain the same level of training performance as the Israelis who use this practice, then the Israeli example is without merit.
Reading that @SUBJ immediately brought to mind the short piece of security video that circulated last year from the incident where, as the shop owner fumbled trying to rack the slide to load a round into the empty chamber, the thief shot & killed both him and his son.
In the late '70s I trained myself to be comfortable and competent to carry my Colt Combat Commander .45 Cocked & Locked so, no ... I actually feel about this as does bdickens.
I worked with plenty of Israelis. And none of them carried with an empty chamber. Maybe it was a training procedure awhile back and it has just perpetuated on the internet.
You have to do what is comfortable for you. If carrying with an empty chamber is what you feel safe with, go for it. Go into that mind set knowing you are at a serious disadvantage if you were in a need to use your firearm. You are not always going to have a free hand to rack your slide and chamber that first round.
I used to carry my firearms with an empty chamber back when I first started. This gave me the chance to see if my holster had any snag points that could pull my trigger during holstering/unholstering. After awhile of carrying empty chamber and never having a trigger pulled in a holster I started carrying +1 (in the chamber).
I bet all here have read and seen the movie about the Mossad and how they 'took out the trash' after the Munich Olympic attack on the Israeli athletes.
But do note that even if that technique is dead and gone ,when it was used = the Mossad did tens of thousands of repetitions to OWN that technique.
A close friend of mine was in the U.S. military at the time and he was carrying an issued 1911,and NO ROUNDS in his chamber.
So he trained for many hours and thousands of repetitions to be able to draw that 'empty gun' and using his holster and ONE HAND = rack the slide and bring that 'hammer' to full usage.
When I was a kid, I felt perfectly safe being a passenger in the 1953 Ford. No safety belts, the seats would have torn off the floor in an accident, further crushing the occupants against a hard metal dash. Those older vehicles were death traps in collisions, but, I felt safe.
Now I won't drive any distance further than the parking lot without wearing my safety belt. Recently, I am feeling less safe about a vintage vehicle, 1972. Originally it has lap belt, but I installed after market shoulder belts. Shoulder belts were an option at the time, but it did have the bracket for a shoulder belt. I was feeling much safer till I talked to a Ford engineer. He joined Ford in 1961 and worked on a number of things, including safety belts, till he retired. When I asked him about the safety of vintage belt systems, he made the statement that the mounts would probably rip out in a collision. Standards for safety systems were very weak back then. And that included seat mounting. Vintage seats often ripped from the floor in an accident.
I always wore a motorcycle helmet and I never felt safe riding without one. Depending on the state, I see lots of motorcycle riders without helmets. They feel safe without one. Some of them really push the edge, and lose. Indian Larry was an amazing custom motorcycle maker, did not wear a helmet, and often performed a risky stunt on the seat of his motorcycle. There are lots of pictures of him, standing fully erect, arms out, on the seat of his moving motorcycle. In 2004 Larry fell off and hit his head on the pavement. Larry is no longer with us. I have no doubt, he felt his stunt was safe.
Just search for accidental discharges, and it is surprising how many striker fired systems have accidental discharges. Many of the firearms depend on the holster to keep the gun from discharging, when the holster fails, owners get shot.
Risk is real, it can be quantified, if the data is there, but in the final analysis, individual's attitudes towards risk is highly variable. If you are receiving advice from a guy who thinks it is safe to drive a motorcycle without a helmet, and it is perfectly OK to stand on the seat when it is moving, that individual has a high threshold for risk. Might be higher than yours. If you don't feel safe with that pistol, find one you do feel safe.
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