Does carrying with one in the chamber make anybody else uneasy?

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...Johnny Q. Citizen who is relatively new to handguns and is selecting a carry methodology, gun and holster. The "keep your booger hook off the bang switch" expression doesn't help the situation. The goal is reducing the ways that Murphy can strike.

That's exactly what "keeping your booger hook off the bang switch" is.

It's a real simple concept; I can't imagine why Johnny Q. Citizen would have a hard time with it.
 
I had to post and run. I have edited Post #72 to flesh it out a bit.
 
That's exactly what "keeping your booger hook off the bang switch" is.
It's a real simple concept;

Until its not. That's kinda like saying "Don't get into a car accident" and expecting to prevent all car accidents. Murphy happens.

There are drivers who have driven hundreds of thousands of miles, taken multiple professional driving lessons, and have never actually NEEDED their seat belt. Does that validate the statement that seat belts are unnecessary?

Carrying with a loaded chamber is absolutely the best tactical decision. However, that doesn't mean that other serious safety concerns can be dismissed due to their relatively rare occurrence.
 
So for Johnny Q. Citizen who wants to protect themselves or their family, and doesn't have the ability/interest to become a dedicated "operator", a tactically effective platform with a greater margin for error is the best choice.
How would Johnny Q Citizen protect anyone if he cannot draw and fire quickly enough?
 
We know that the large majority of handgun, concealed carry purchasers never train beyond a state mandated course (if one such is mandated). They might have some military experience or some self-taught, family member square range, at the ranch static shooting time.

That is a reality. Given that, I have problems with folks carrying in a manner that they think might give themselves a false sense of security by being armed but the worst possible configuration. Ok, a good DAO SW 3953 would be a decent belt gun. An unchambered little 380 isn't.

If you are not going to come up to speed with a semi, just don't carry one. There are fine pocket guns in the J frames. Yes, yes - you give up capacity and reload speed. They are hard to shoot but the small semis aren't a piece of cake either in stress. Reloading them isn't child play either, if you haven't put in the time.

So, I suppose my bottom line is put in the time or switch to a revolver with its limitations. This isn't optimal by a long shot. I also put in the time with a revolver.

There's really nothing new in this thread. It's accept the risk of not being as good as you can be and see the problems I, Kleanbore and others have laid out vs. your own fears. You can fix the latter, you can't change the risk analysis from your opponent.
 
Are you trying to say there is a defensively relevant difference in trigger actuation time between true DAO and typical striker platforms?
No. I was speaking of carrying with the chamber loaded vs unloaded.

I missed your point, if you agree that a firearm with an empty chamber is not "tactically effective".

I put the pistol with a safety switch that requires a motion separate and distinct from drawing and fire in the unacceptable category too, and for the same reason
 
Jeebus this gets beat to death. :notworthy:

Carry the gun how you want to. But don’t expect folks to agree with a mode of carry that’s not accepted by, or taught by, the vast, vast majority of sidearm carry instructors. If you’re good with an empty chamber under the hammer then great, have at it.

When it comes to carry gun styles, carry what you want to. But please don’t project your own carry issues onto someone else who doesn’t share your opinions on what gun is inherently unsafe based upon your unique opinion. For every point there is an equally valid counterpoint, and talking in circle after circle gets one nowhere.

Here is a hint to anyone who carries a firearm for SD purposes: If you carry, practice.

At home, unload and practice concealed draw; out of your pocket, from your waistband, etc. Draw and dry fire one hand, two hand, off hand, left arm up defensively, right arm up defensively, etc. This will show you just how hard these are to do, and why the act of carrying a gun will often provide false confidence... as the time to learn how how well you do this, or even how to do this, isn’t in the heat of the moment.

When at the range, live fire. You may not get to do all those movements, but presentation, trigger control, recoil management and follow through are all important to properly shooting a sidearm in every situation.

This type of stuff (especially outside and apart from solid instruction) won’t make you a Tactical Tex or a John Rambo, but it will help to make you a more confident, and most importantly more competent, concealed sidearm carrier.

Stay safe.
 
I will never understand the whole revolver argument in regards to this discussion. Personally I think a cocked and locked 1911 is far safer than a DAO revolver, or striker fired gun.

Not feeling comfortable with carrying a condition 1 gun is really something that needs to be addressed in a training sense. Its just not a sound thing to do.

My carry and HD guns are Glocks and are ready to go with a round chambered. A DAO revolver is the same thing with just a stiffer trigger, but still, if the trigger is pulled a round goes off. The fact that a gun has a 10-12lb pull with a chambered round versus a 5-10lb pull with a chambered round just doesnt present a valid argument IMO.
 
The revolver argument is all about trigger pull. The rationale is that a slip onto the trigger is less likely to activate it. However, if the finger in on the trigger, human factors research has demonstrated that slips, falls, startles, sympathetic clutches from the movement of the other will easily pull the DA weight.

There are enough simulations and actual NDs to demonstrate this. Here's one study: https://www.policeone.com/archive/a...s-the-finger-obey-the-brain-h5z2h6XBiLr9Ie5j/

One nasty unintended consequence of DA/SA guns has been brought up by Mas, IIRC. Recall the DA part was developed to protect against folks who put their finger on the trigger. The hope was that the longer and heavier pull might offer some protection (not against the factors I mentioned above). However, shooters who were stupidly used to rest their finger on the trigger, hoping the DA pull would protect them, would still put their finger back on the now SA pull - causing a ND.

Thus, recommending a revolver is a partial attempt to solve or reduce the problem of the untrained shooter putting their finger on the trigger. However, even some trained folks slip up on this.

I've seen enough trained shooters shoot one into the ground on the draw or raising the long arm to target. It's rare but it happens with everything. I've seen 1911s, Glocks, AR, shotgun, etc. BOOM!

Nothing beats repetition, repetition, repetition. Lord knows how many times I've drawn, safety off, dry fired my 1911. 99% of time in a match, draw, safety off, bang, hit. Once in awhile, damn safety. Watch the clock tick and crowd laugh.

Another nuance comes to mind. Most folks practice their draw in optimal, standing up positions. What if you are not like that? Guess what, folks screw up their planned, rehearsed movements in extremis and off positions. Motor memory can be quite specific. Cases in point.

Watch folks learn to find the red dot! Haha. Even really good folks - a friend who is champion level with one - BAH, Where's the dot and the stages goes to hell. Or the start position is on the ground, under a barricade, kneeling, whatever - the dot is lost. The same thing somethings happens with the classic manual safety. Start prone and have to draw (safely!), have to retrieve the gun from a box - those aren't the classic draw stroke and the safety (OOOPS!).

These factors are must be considered in a carry gun.

For the little guns - shoot matches with a J frame or a LCP, G42 with close and far targets. 50 rounds on the square range at 7 yards with no pressure - better than nothing I suppose.
 
I will never understand the whole revolver argument in regards to this discussion. Personally I think a cocked and locked 1911 is far safer than a DAO revolver, or striker fired gun.

Not feeling comfortable with carrying a condition 1 gun is really something that needs to be addressed in a training sense. Its just not a sound thing to do.

My carry and HD guns are Glocks and are ready to go with a round chambered. A DAO revolver is the same thing with just a stiffer trigger, but still, if the trigger is pulled a round goes off. The fact that a gun has a 10-12lb pull with a chambered round versus a 5-10lb pull with a chambered round just doesnt present a valid argument IMO.

I think on a mechanical level the safest is a DAO revolver > SA Auto > Striker gun. The most dangerous part of the process if probably holstering the sidearm. If anything gets in the trigger guard while seating the gun you can get a BANG! With a typical striker gun is a shirt tail or jacket drawstring gets in there's nothing to prevent the gun from going off. If the same happens with a cocked-and-locked SA auto the safety should prevent it from going off provided you didn't forget to engage it and it didn't get swiped off when you holstered it. With a good holster that shouldn't happen but with a cheap Uncle Mike's it definitely can. When I was new to CCW that happened to me, my BHP safety came off in the holster and was cocked-and-unlocked. Even then it didn't go off but it was unnerving. With a DAO wheelgun if you have your thumb or the web of palm over the hammer when you holster it the odds of something in the trigger guard pulled the trigger back far enough to overcome the 12 lbs of the hammer spring and the weight of your hand and arm are vanishingly slight.
 
The most dangerous part of the process if probably holstering the sidearm. If anything gets in the trigger guard while seating the gun you can get a BANG! With a typical striker gun is a shirt tail or jacket drawstring gets in there's nothing to prevent the gun from going off.
That is certainly a concern. That's why I really prefer a pistol with a grip safety.

with a cocked-and-locked SA auto the safety should prevent it from going off provided you didn't forget to engage it and it didn't get swiped off when you holstered it. With a good holster that shouldn't happen but with a cheap Uncle Mike's it definitely can.
I had a Smith & Wesson M&P Compact with a safety that disengaged often while in the holster. I sold it.
 
I will. Unless you are exceptionally well trained and maintain the same level of training performance as the Israelis who use this practice, then the Israeli example is without merit.
The "Israeli Method" is really based on Israeli Soldiers not knowing which of a variety of handguns they might be issued. Carrying all of them with a loaded mag, safety off, chamber empty allowed for a common manual of arms when bringing the piece into action.

John
 
I’m uncomfortable enough with the short, light pull of a Glock-like trigger that I won’t carry one as a SD gun. My selection of pocket carry guns all have long deliberate draw strokes and includes a DAO J frame, Kahr PM9 and a Ruger LCP.

All are carried with a full magazine and a round in the chamber. I figure in the stress of a defensive shooting situation I’ll be fortunate not to drop the gun during the draw or miss a normally easy shot. The last thing I need to add to an already terrible situation is the possibility of forgetting to chamber a round first.

Imagine just how loud that “click” would be.
 
It's a real simple concept;Until its not. That's kinda like saying "Don't get into a car accident" and expecting to prevent all car accidents.
Not at all true. "Don't get into a car accident" is a general statement. There are literally thousands of way to end up in a car accident.
"Don't put your finger inside the trigger guard until ready to fire" is a specific instruction. It gives a single, easily remembered command.
I was given my first training class at age 22, oriented towards on the job carry in OH, and heard the instruction then. I'm sure I have forgotten more than I have learned in classes since then, but I have never forgotten that simple, easily remembered and followed directive. (Including 21 months in a combat zone, and several years of armed on the job carry.)

Full stop.
 
I recently started pocket carrying a P-32(in a pocket holster. I'm not dumb), and one of the things I can't bring myself to do is carrying it with one in the chamber like I see recommended a lot of places. I realize that it isn't really that different than carrying my 38 snubbie with the cylinder full, but that at least has a 14lb DA trigger. The P-32 only has a 5-ish lb trigger, and having it in my pocket with "one in the pipe", with no actual safety, even in the holster, seems like a really bad idea. Am I just being paranoid?
Don't worry what other people do and carry in a manner YOU are comfortable with.
 
Don't worry what other people do and carry in a manner YOU are comfortable with.
Unless it's dangerous. In which case, ask people with more education and experience.

Carrying an autoloader with an empty chamber and expecting to be able to use it defensively is dangerous. Don't do it.

Or, you know, you could take advice from posters using the names of fictional characters. Your choice.

John
 
Not at all true. "Don't get into a car accident" is a general statement. There are literally thousands of way to end up in a car accident.
"Don't put your finger inside the trigger guard until ready to fire" is a specific instruction. It gives a single, easily remembered command.
I was given my first training class at age 22, oriented towards on the job carry in OH, and heard the instruction then. I'm sure I have forgotten more than I have learned in classes since then, but I have never forgotten that simple, easily remembered and followed directive.

I think the multiple quoted replies have garbled the discussion. My intent on lampooning "keeping your booger hook off the bang switch" is based on the flawed assumption that "finger on trigger" is the only source of NDs with striker guns. Documented cases of holsters, straps, shirt tails, pens, chapstick, kids, are conveniently forgotten on the altar of "great trigger" and "same pull each time". I stand by my expression that "Don't get into a car accident" is how gun carry is viewed by many individuals who don't accept that the design features of their carry firearm can directly contribute to a ND.
 
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Unless it's dangerous. In which case, ask people with more education and experience.

Carrying an autoloader with an empty chamber and expecting to be able to use it defensively is dangerous. Don't do it.

Or, you know, you could take advice from posters using the names of fictional characters. Your choice.

John

I would add...

Carrying an autoloader with a light weight / short travel trigger is dangerous to you and your surrounding citizens. Don't do it.
 
Fixed it for you.

I guess we just have to agree to disagree on that subject, because I vehemently do. Many of these striker guns are essentially no different than carrying a Series 80 1911 with the grip safety pinned, the thumb safety off, and pronouncing it "good to go".

Would you support such a style of carry?
 
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Any gun with a trigger contributes to a ND. The principle is called an affordance. If one wants to compares sources, it would be nice to have a professional source that does compare sources of such. I follow such and yet to see that chap sticks and pens outnumber finger on the trigger. If someone is not able to keep their gun clear of such - I will say that maybe they shouldn't carry at all as they are lacking in basic common sense.

I would also ban dogs as dogs have been known to knock over rifles or step on them and shoot their 'masters'.
 
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