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Does it really make sense for...

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by Shawnee, Sep 7, 2008.

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  1. Shawnee

    Shawnee member

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    …the “typical hunter” to buy a rifle in a caliber sufficient for Elk ?

    A look at some numbers….

    From Oregon’s state wildlife website…

    “Hunting Pressure and Harvest
    During 2000, more than 700,000 hunters pursued a herd of almost one million elk across western Canada and the United States with a harvest of about 160,000 elk annually.”

    WOW ! 700,000 Elk hunters (including ARCHERS) bagged 160,000 elk, a success rate of about 23%..... and it took all of the U.S. PLUS the western half of Canada to do it… or about 2/3 of the continent.

    Well here are some more numbers…

    In 2007 - 683,000 hunters (just 17,000 less than the continent’s total elk hunters) bagged 484,000 deer (3 times the continent’s elk total) - in the state of Michigan - alone. Read that again – there are almost as many deer hunters in Michigan as the total number of elk hunters in the entire U.S. and half of Canada. Michigan – ONE STATE.

    Hmmm.

    How about…

    In 2007 – ARCHERS bagged 116,000 deer (equal to 72% the continent’s elk total) in the state of Wisconsin – alone. Wisconsin’s total 2007 deer harvest was 518,000, or more than 3 times the continent’s elk total.

    … or maybe…

    Minnesota with 500,000 hunters (71% of the number of all elk hunters) bagging 200,000 deer (125% of the number of elk taken).

    Gosh… let’s try …

    Pennsylvania - 2005 – total deer was 354,000 – more than 2x the continent’s elk total.

    Ohio – 2007 – with three days of the season lost to weather – 238,000 deer or almost half again as many as the continent’s elk total.

    Indiana 2007 – 124,400 deer, or more than ¾ the continent’s elk total.

    Gee… 2/3 of the continent has 700,000 elk hunters taking 160,000 elk – with less than 1 in 4 successful…

    But, at least two states each have numbers of deer hunters nearly equal to the continent’s total number of elk hunters… AND

    just six states (count ‘em – 6 !) have a total of successful deer hunters that is more than 3 times the total number of the continent’s elk hunters and MORE THAN FOURTEEN TIMES the continent’s number of successful elk hunters.


    Decide for yourself if the “typical hunter” really needs to burden themselves with a caliber capable of flattening elk, moose, grizzlies, lions and tigers. And the next time someone asks what caliber they need for a deer rifle – tell no lies.

    :cool:
     
  2. TCB in TN

    TCB in TN Member

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    :rolleyes: Feeling a bit full of ourselves today are we?
     
  3. Javelin

    Javelin Member

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    Haha. Elk are suckers sometimes to find. If the weather is bad enough they can come down from the high mountains but sometimes they hang up there and you gotta find them.

    And a 30-06 is a fine Elk gun IMO.

    :)
     
  4. rugerfreak

    rugerfreak Member

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    Just get a .270 or 30 ought and be done with it.
     
  5. TexasRifleman

    TexasRifleman Moderator Emeritus

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    Hey if the money flows that well for you then sure, buy an Elk gun when you get around to an Elk hunt someday.

    If, like most people, you have to pay attention to the money flow then buy a gun big enough for what you HOPE you'll be able to use it for someday.

    That might include Elk hunting, even if you never get around to it.

    Not quite sure what your point is to be honest, other than not as many people hunt Elk as they do other game. I suspect everyone knows that already.
     
  6. Vicious-Peanut

    Vicious-Peanut Member

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    You really enjoy getting people all revved up huh? Nearly all of the threads you start turn into huge 5+ page topics in which people insult, yell at and demean each other. You also seem to have a personal vendetta against people owning a rifle larger than a 7mm. So they want one, what difference does it make?


    Have fun with your thread, but it seems all you are trying to do is get people riled up.
     
  7. CB900F

    CB900F Member

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    Fella's;

    Elk are not armor plated, as Javelin said, the .30-06 work just fine as an elk gun. Any decent deer rifle, with exceptions on the lighter end, will work as a decent elk gun. Shot placement trumps caliber every time.

    However, please don't take the .243 elk hunting. That wimpy little garbage round is just asking for trouble on that size an animal.

    Snrk! 900F
     
  8. Ratshooter

    Ratshooter Member

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    I think this might be the beginning of another "A 243 is all you need thread". I could be wrong. I like a 243 and don't intend to sell mine but when headed out for deer I just grab one of my Remington 7-08s or my 7x57.

    Or this year a 44 or 357 mag levergun.
     
  9. kentucky_smith

    kentucky_smith Member

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    Does it really make sense for Shawnee to start more and more threads belittling everything and everybody but him and the .243?


    :D


    I said it once and I'll say it again. My pre64 M70 and my M1 came in 30-06. I've never had to doubt if I had enough gun.
     
  10. Ratshooter

    Ratshooter Member

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    I forgot to add. I have two Remington 700s. A 243 and a 30-06. Both have wood stocks and 22" barrels. The 243 is a quarter pound heavier.

    To lighten my load would be to use the 30-06 and for whitetails i have reduced power loads. If I had to pick between those two for a hunt guess which one gets picked.
     
  11. Deer Hunter

    Deer Hunter Member

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    How about we let people buy what they WANT and not what they NEED?
     
  12. scythefwd

    scythefwd Member

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    Well, since I get an elk tag every year and can hunt 1 elk each year to the west of the blue ridge mountains, I guess it is good to carry an elk rifle in the mix. That said, my 06 stays at home (would you take a glass bedded garand out hunting) and either my 12ga or my 30-30 goes out with me. The blue ridge mountains are way too far away from me to bother with.
     
  13. Shawnee

    Shawnee member

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    "....threads belittling everything and everybody but him and the .243?"

    Hi "Kentucky Smith"...

    LOLOLOL :D:D:D

    You can't find even ONE thread I've started where I have - as you lie "belittled everything and everybody but him and the .243".

    And you can't find even ONE place in the OP of this thread where I even mention the .243 or myself.

    What part of "tell no lies" is beyond your grasp ?


    Others - I'll say it again......

    "Decide for Yourself."


    :cool:
     
  14. Jeff F

    Jeff F Member

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    Like I have said in a couple of other posts, I have a cousin that has killed a couple of elk with a .22 hornet. Like was said above shot placement is way more important then how big the bullet is.
     
  15. SimpleIsGood229

    SimpleIsGood229 Member

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    Jeff, your cousin is way over-burdening himself with that .22 Hornet. Too much flash and blast. Tell him to start hunting deer with something more suitable--like a .22 Short. :rolleyes:
     
  16. browningguy

    browningguy Member

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    Elk guns also work fine for deer, pigs coyote etc. I don't have an elk gun anymore, a guy wanted my Dumoulin in .338 Winnie real bad. But I still get the .458 Winnie out deer and pig hunting at least once a year. That 400 gr. softpoint at 2300 FPS really does a number on coyotes also.
     
  17. Dookie

    Dookie Member

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    I thought the 17 HMR was the ultimate elk rifle. hmm, well I guess I better bump it up to the 223 :)

    My brother is dead set on buying a 300 win mag because he wants to hunt elk. While the 300 is a superb elk rifle, it's not so good for our little white tail he also wants to hunt. And because he listened to an "expert" on local hunting he won't listen to the multiple other people who tell him that a middle caliber like the 270, 30-06, 7mm or 308 would be better for what he needs. He also hasn't quite got that elk are not exactly easy to hunt.
     
  18. Ben Shepherd

    Ben Shepherd Member

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    Lets see:

    $40 tag= 150 lbs. of venison

    $80 tag= 3-400 lbs of elk meat.

    One gun for both jobs(30-06). Works for me.

    Around here, I'm lucky, elk are as easy/hard to get(both tags and animals) as deer.
     
  19. goon

    goon Member

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    I can't speak for other states, but here in my part of PA you're lucky to even see a deer during deer season anymore.
    But assume that you do shoot one. Or that you shoot both a legal buck and a doe - two deer.
    Then assume that you're the "average hunter". That, by definition, means that you will fire exactly one three-shot group per season. As long as two of your shots are on a sheet of paper at 100 yards, you'll call your rifle zeroed and head to the woods.
    Then you'll shoot one (or two) deer at approximately 70 yards. You'll aim at the chest cavity because that's a pretty big target, about as big as your sheet of paper, and you'll probably kill your deer. You're OK with that because it's "good enough".

    My whole point?
    Doesn't matter what caliber you use if you're just an "average hunter" as long as it's powerful enough.
    You won't have to deal with punishing recoil because even the most sissy guys I know can handle a grand total of five or six rounds of 30'06 in the course of a year.
    Will something smaller work?
    Yep.
    But if you think that maybe, some day you might want to hunt bear or elk or go "out west" why not buy a gun that can do all those things with relative ease?
    After all, you only have to put up with extra recoil for six shots per year.
     
  20. jbech123

    jbech123 Member

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    Glad you did so much diligent research, I would have never guessed there are way more deer killed annually than elk. I hope I don't find out next that more people fish for bass in North America than run traplines for wolverine.
    Don't know exactly what a "typical hunter" is. In any event, if you are hunting elk, you need a cartridge powerful enough for elk hunting. A .270 is about the low end, although a .243 or .260 will do the job under ideal conditions. You don't need to flatten a elk or moose, but certainly you need a rifle adequate for the task.
    Really you just make a bunch of generalizations..."And the next time someone asks what caliber they need for a deer rifle – tell no lies". Well what conditions are we talking about? I would be perfectly content using a .243 to shoot southern whitetails in Alabama or Coues deer in AZ. Or a 30/30 in the thick woods of Michigan. However under many circumstances, it would be a far less than optimum choice. Let's say you are an average working guy and after 5 years of saving your change and wife convincing, you are now set to go on a whitetail hunt of a lifetime to Saskatchewan for ~4K. Would a 30/30 work? Sure. Would most people opt for something with more range in this scenario? I know I sure would.
    Or an actual situation that I am in right now - drew a really good very hard to get mule deer tag. Talking to people in the area, prospects look fantastic but consistent message I'm getting for the area is "very open country, be prepared for long shots". While I love my .243, when I'm looking at a 190" muley 400 yards across a canyon, I don't want to be concerned about how much energy my bullet will have left at that range, and will it be enough to bring down a 300 lb deer if my shot is anything less than perfect. Anything that will decrease my chances on this hunt has no appeal to me.
    Hunting big game is no different than any other endeavor, you use the tool adequate for the job. I could probably cut all of the wood needed to refinish my basement with a chainsaw, or on the other end of the spectrum, I could use a hack saw. Neither one is the correct tool for the job though. While I saw you said above that you didn't say any caliber in particular, blah blah blah. We all know what you are getting at. The fact still remains if a guy wanted to buy only one rifle, the .243 or 30/30 would be a poor choice, unless you are hunting under very specific circumstances and have no desire to expand them in the future. I personally think limiting yourself to one rifle is a bad idea. However the fact of the matter is many "typical hunters" buy a rifle thinking "I will mostly be hunting deer, but I will likely go out west for elk at some point in my life, so why not just get enough gun to handle an elk/moose/bear should I be lucky enough to have the opportunity to hunt them." So they opt for a .270/30-06/.308. Actually if you are really hell bent on having one rifle, those are solid choices. And with the availability of the "managed recoil loads", you can downgun them for whitetails if/when appropriate.
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2008
  21. Shawnee

    Shawnee member

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    Hi "Jbech..."

    "I personally think limiting yourself to one rifle is a bad idea."

    So do I.

    I also think someone who can afford a $4k hunting trip is neither "typical" nor unable to afford a second rifle.

    I also think using an Elk rifle for deer is every bit as bad an idea as using a deer rifle for Elk.

    If you "would be perfectly content using a .243 to shoot southern whitetails or Coues deer in AZ. " and feel that "under many circumstances, it would be a far less than optimum choice." (blah, blah, blah)... so be it. Enjoy whatever limitations you have to accept... after all, they are your limitations.

    For the third time - I made no caliber recommendations and I said "decide for yourself". ;)


    And by the way, Jbech... "We all know what you are getting at. "

    It's a hoot how you big-bore types think one, or a few of you, speak for everyone.

    :D :D
     
  22. TexasRifleman

    TexasRifleman Moderator Emeritus

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    Following that reasoning then I should not have ONE .30-06, I should sell it and buy TWO rifles, one for deer and one for elk?

    I don't feel like I'm "limiting" myself. Wow, I must be doing it wrong.

    Same with the .45-70. An outstanding round for whitetail in the proper loading, also excellent for elk with the proper loading.

    Guess that's "limiting" as well.
     
  23. HM2PAC

    HM2PAC Member

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    I'm not understanding the point of this thread either.

    When I started reading it, I was pretty sure Shawnee was going to starting bashing calibers he doesn't care for again. (In the back of my head, I'm still waiting for him to start. Probably after he gets people to agree that you don't NEED the same caliber to kill a deer as you do an elk.)

    But so far he hasn't done that.

    So tell us,....

    ....which calibers should the "average hunter" limit himself to, and which calibers are only for those who can afford them to hunt Sandworms on Arrakis?
     
  24. jbech123

    jbech123 Member

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    Not in this thread, but a quick search here makes it pretty obvious, My personal favorite being the one where you call the .243 the "King". Although this quote is a close 2nd - "and THE #1 - hands-down, guaranteed, All-Time Best Champion centerfire rifle caliber for the typical U.S. hunter is unquestionably - as everyone knows - the .243 Winchester. an' Tha'ss a Fac', Jac !"

    Even though you obviously lack objectivity, at least your arguments normally have some logic behind them. This statement is utterly ridiculous. So following that line of logic, using a .458 for woodchucks is every bit as bad as using a 22 hornet for cape buffalo?

    Could you explain to me how evaluating a situation and saying "the .243 would probably get the job done, but this tag normally takes 12 years to draw, I think I will err on the side of caution and take my .270" is me "accepting my limitations".

    I realize your goal here is to just get people riled up. I do find it laughable though when someone calls you out, you act like someone thinking you have an axe to grind with anything .30 cal, is preposterous and they are making up lies about you. The search button is only a click away, your posts are easy to find.
     
  25. Shawnee

    Shawnee member

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    Hi TexasRifleman...

    "....and buy TWO rifles,"


    I wasn't aware there is something wrong with owning two rifles.;)


    Hi HM2....

    The point of the post is to show a more accurate picture of what the "typical hunter" does and needs.... thus giving people factual data so they can decide for themselves.

    Hi Jbech... You have a perfect right to your opinion(s) - but it is no more perfect than my right to my opinions.
    And by the way - considering some of the hyper-blather about the '06 that the .30 cal. types post here - none of you needs to make so much as a chirp when someone praises a different caliber - yet it's always you .30 caliber dudes who are the first and loudest to whine and cuss and cry foul. What's up with that corral dust ? Can't take it? Don't dish it out. :D

    What makes you '06 freaks (or possibly you Texans !) think everyone else here is required to sing from your Hymnal??? Surprise - they aren't.

    :cool:
     
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