Does size matter in a carry gun?

[Hokkmike]

Thenk my wife works at was held up with a BB gun. Nobody knew. Nobdy cared. It was scary all the same.

 

[feedthehogs]

That is the kind of thread and thought that makes THR look bad

Sorry, but I think its a legitimate question of self defense issues.

I've been an instructor for decades and that type of question has been asked many times.

For someone who may have only those two options for carry, either is better than NOTHING.

But like some have said, do not depend on the intimidation factor.

 

[JWarren]

I am in the school of thought that ANY firearm is better than NO firearm.


But I'm also in the school of thought that you need to have one that will do the job. I personally believe that it is more important to get a caliber and platform that WILL do the job and then PRACTICE until you can hit with it. Picking a gun and caliber because you can shoot it best doesn't seem like the best approach. GETTING good with the one that will work seems to be better. That's why I don't take a 10/22 deer hunting.

Now, I do agree that there is a LOT of dead people who got shot with .22 rimfires. Yeah, they can kill you. All firearms are dangerous.


At the same time, I have anecdotal evidence that fails to instill the proper confidence in using a .22 rimfire for self-defense.

One guy that I know was shot with a .22 rimfire rifle in the torso. He was drunk/high at a party. His girlfriend broke up with him and he was depressed. It is believed that he shot himself with the rifle. The bullet rattled around in his torso and ricocheted off of a couple of his ribs. The bullet missed his heart by less then 1/4 inch. I've spoken to the guy in the last few years and he maintains that he was so drunk/high that he never even felt the impact of the bullet. He almost died, but I suspect that someone in a similar state bent on a criminal act could have continued unaware of the shot-- and then bled out later.

I know two persons that have literally been shot in the forehead with .22 rimfires. In both cases, the bullet failed to penetrate the skull. In one case, the bullet went under the skin of the head and ran the contour of his skull. The bullet exited the skin at the base of his neck.

Now, I don't know the details of WHY these two men got shot. I've just seen the men. Could it have been just incredibly lucky for them? There is a good chance that this is the case.


Could it have been that they both have freakishly thick skulls? Probably. In both cases, evolution has not been kind to their families. I suspect that each family sported tails two generations ago.


Isolated cases, sure. But seeing these men walking around gives me that feeling that something more than a .22 rimfire would be nice.



And that is why I carry a 1911A1 .45ACP and my wife carries a Glock 19 9mm.



On another note:


Forget intimidation factor. When you hear of people getting their guns taken from them and getting shot with their own firearms, it is the people that pull guns to "intimidate."

You don't pull a gun unless you are in a position to where you would have to use it. If it isn't a situation where you have to use it, you need to keep it holstered. If you DO have to pull a gun, you had better be mentally in a place where you CAN use the firearm. In a situation where you HAVE to pull a gun and only waving it around hoping to scare another person will only get you killed.

I learned to read faces while competing in martial arts. You can read a lot about a person by their expression. I could tell if a guy was afraid in the ring, and I would make use of his fear. I could tell if a guy would prefer me to come to him, or wanted to rush me. I'd adjust accordingly. I could tell what a guy was planning by subconscious "telegraphing" of moves if they had any fear in them.

Likely, a criminal element bent on harming you has had enough life experiences that he can do the same. As I figure it, it isn't a conscious act. Criminals are predators by nature. A predator either has the instincts or has developed them. Likely, they will quickly size you up and know if you can pull the trigger. They will know if you will hesitate and will likely use that against you.

Now will all do that? Of course not. Like any population segment, the criminal element has their idiots. They don't make long careers of it. But you may be the first attempt. I'd rather give the benefit of the doubt and be pleasantly surprised.


Bottom line:

Get something that delivers the energy and mass needed to get the job done. Then get to where you can carry, draw and shoot it proficiently.

And then... most importantly... Train your mind to be able to deal with making hard choices. Prior to an engagement, reconcile your conscience and ethos to the act. A crisis situation is NOT the time to have a moral dilemma. Settle that crap before you need to act on it.


Again, just my thoughts.


-- John

 

[TexasRifleman]

Drawing a handgun soley for the intimidation factor is commonly called "brandishing a firearm"

Not in every state.

In Texas there is a specific statute covering drawing a gun but not firing, it's permissible to use as a "threat of deadly force" but not yet "deadly force" in the self defense force escalation.

In fact the only time I've pulled my carry piece was for exactly that.

This whole "if you draw it you have to shoot it" thing is insane.

Now, to draw it with the knowledge beforehand that you won't pull the trigger if things escalate is certainly crazy.

 

[goon]

Smaller is easier to carry, and most of us will carry more often if we can just stick the gun in a pocket or waistband and go.
I may get flamed for saying this, but caliber isn't that big of a deal (within reasonable range).
If someone attacks you and you shoot him twice COM with a .22LR you will probably stop him. If you do that with a .38 you will also probably stop him. If you don't, continue pulling the trigger.
There are accounts of even the mighty M-1 Garand failing to stop japanese soldiers during WWII and having to resort to the bayonet so caliber isn't everything (but it certainly is something).

 

[Big Boomer]

Gbran preached: Ah, don't worry, carry the .22, it's all about shot placement anyway.

+1

RoadkingLarry retorted: Carry and shoot the most powerful gun/caliber that you can safely and discreetly handle with accuracy. That being said a solid hit with a .22 LR is better than a miss with a 9 mm.

+1

Doc2005 Spewed: That is the kind of thread and thought that makes THR look bad. Furthermore, such a post could potentially end up used against the OP if ever involved in a defensive situation. In a real-world case, the bad guy would never have the opportunity to identify what type firearm was used to stop the attack. Drawing a firearm for intimidation-sake is brandishing, period!

In addition, the .380 ACP is a poor choice as a primary carry piece. The .22LR would be laughable at best as a primary piece. The minimum allowed in the Tactical and Advanced Tactical Shooting courses is a 9mm or .38 Spcl. The P3AT or .22LR is fine for a back-up pistol, but that is about it.

-500 please see quote above I thought it's about what you can hit? NOT miss

.22lr would be laughable? I thought you were not trying to intimidate anyone?

Well Whoop-te-freakin-do tactical and advanced bla bla crap. Good for you mall ninja!

So if all anyone owns is a small caliber, they shouldn't carry it because it just might make the perp more upset!

Pulling your gun and not firing is NOT brandishing if you had the right to use deadly force to begin with. But I suppose you are one of those guys that if he pulls his gun he has to shoot something?! And THAT is supposed to be a model THR member?! Let me direct you to the nearest funny farm and a straight jacket...we will put you in a round room and tell you to go pee in the corner...

There are many instances in which a firearm was unused successfully while being drawn to defend oneself. Many perps will suddenly think twice when their target is no longer easy prey.

So you are walking down the street and a group of twenty something gangbangers decides they want to rob/attack you. You pull your weapon they scatter like roaches. Problem solved. No one died.

You: pulls weapon and starts firing at everyone people get shot in the back and crawl along the ground, you put a couple of shots in the back of the head cuz they "were still squirmin". Let's just see who goes to jail

Sorry a bit off topic, had to correct the people that were leading us in the wrong direction and give some praise.

Ok so, a LARGER gun? Well yes! This is for a couple of reasons.

1. Larger guns will have more weight and recoil less; therefore, will be inherently more accuate with follow up shots. If you are recoil shy this is definitely a bonus.

2. Larger guns I assume look like they might do more damage and therefore be more intimidating yes.

3. Larger guns are usually more controllable because of weight distribution and larger grips that are more comfortable.

Cons?

Larger guns are harder to conceal (for most)

JWarren thoughtfully spoke: I am in the school of thought that ANY firearm is better than NO firearm.

+2

JWarren misstepped with this: You don't pull a gun unless you are in a position to where you would have to use it. If it isn't a situation where you have to use it, you need to keep it holstered. If you DO have to pull a gun, you had better be mentally in a place where you CAN use the firearm. In a situation where you HAVE to pull a gun and only waving it around hoping to scare another person will only get you killed.

Please see above, you don't have to pull the trigger if you don't have to. Also a problem solved without spending $20,000 in court fees to defend yourself seems to be a better route. That being said if you have to pull the trigger then by all means shoot that sucka!

But I am of the thought that if your gun leaves the holster, you better had been justified, and second don't forget to call your local law enforcement or you might just end up being the bad guy.

JWarren is bordering on mall ninjaness with:I learned to read faces while competing in martial arts. You can read a lot about a person by their expression. I could tell if a guy was afraid in the ring, and I would make use of his fear. I could tell if a guy would prefer me to come to him, or wanted to rush me. I'd adjust accordingly. I could tell what a guy was planning by subconscious "telegraphing" of moves if they had any fear in them.

I've taken a few years of martial arts too but you can never be 100% accurate judging a persons intent, especially if they happen to be "altered" on some drugs. So leave the "mall ninja" or "superman" tactics out us mere mortals cannot do those things.

All that being said, I imagine I've pushed a few buttons and some of you want to jump through the computer screen and beat me silly.

I was mostly being a smart A$$ so don't worry about it! It's Friday! Go to the range and kill some targets!

Oh and for what it's worth...my wife says size does matter!

 

[jefnvk]

If you carry the 22 for its intimidation and he doesn't run away at the sight of it, then what?

If he is anythign like me, he can put 10 rounds into a much smaller grouping than with any other gun he owns. I shoot those clay rabbits with my 22/45. I can't hit a bullseye pistol target at 50% with my 9mm.

BTW I am fully of the opinion that if you want a man-stopper, you must carry a 500 S&W. The 45 did an excellent job through the 20th century, but there are much better options available today. If the 500 is just too big to carry, I suppose that you can get by with a .44 Mag or a .454 Causall, but I'm just not sure I'd feel comfortable with such peashooters.

 

[Zundfolge]

Intimidation means NADA, ZILCH, ZERO, NOTHING in an armed encounter.

I'll agree with this.

In the heat of the moment, a small gun looks pretty darn large. Years ago when I was robbed the perp used a Raven .25 ... at the time he drew it, it looked as menacing as a .44mag.

If intimidation worked, you could pack a cheap airsoft pistol but the point is if you're going to draw your weapon you should be prepared to fire it ... that means pick enough gun to do the job.


That said, the little KelTec P3AT is a good "always" gun since its so small and light you can carry it pretty much everywhere ... and power wise its better than a .22 by a long shot. I'd recommend carrying something larger (9x19 or larger) but I'd rather see people carry a P3AT 24/7/365 than a .45 only part of the time.

 

[kd7nqb]

Size does matter in a carry gun

The larger it is, the harder to conceal and thus the more the gun will be a PITA, which in turn means you carry it less.

 

[Zundfolge]

The larger it is, the harder to conceal and thus the more the gun will be a PITA, which in turn means you carry it less.

This is true ... however if you throw away the El Cheapo Uncle Mike's nylon IWB holster and get a quality leather or Kydex molded holster you can comfortably carry a larger gun.

 

[goon]

You can carry it but what about concealment?
And you can't really argue the fact that a Kahr P-9 weighs less than a full sized steel frame 1911.
One is great for carry in colder weather - most of three seasons here in PA.
The other works great for summer - P9.
Right now, the P-9 is my "almost anytime" gun. Even my GF never seems to notice it unless she hugs me and feels it. For casual concealment under a T-shirt in a Don Hume IWB or just stuck in a coat pocket or mexican carry down to the convenience store its about perfect.
For me.
But you should carry what works for you. Be advised though that it has taken me a LOT of handguns to figure out what works.
Enjoy...

 

[JWarren]

Big Boomer wrote:

Quote:
JWarren misstepped with this: You don't pull a gun unless you are in a position to where you would have to use it. If it isn't a situation where you have to use it, you need to keep it holstered. If you DO have to pull a gun, you had better be mentally in a place where you CAN use the firearm. In a situation where you HAVE to pull a gun and only waving it around hoping to scare another person will only get you killed.

Please see above, you don't have to pull the trigger if you don't have to. Also a problem solved without spending $20,000 in court fees to defend yourself seems to be a better route. That being said if you have to pull the trigger then by all means shoot that sucka!

But I am of the thought that if your gun leaves the holster, you better had been justified, and second don't forget to call your local law enforcement or you might just end up being the bad guy.

BB,

Actually, you may re-consider your evaluation of my statement with this:

I never said you HAD to pull a trigger.

I DID say:

You don't pull a gun unless you are in a position to where you would have to use it. If it isn't a situation where you have to use it, you need to keep it holstered.

and this:

If you DO have to pull a gun, you had better be mentally in a place where you CAN use the firearm.

It is a mistake to believe that pulling always means shooting. I, myself, have had to draw before. I haven't shot anyone.

The difference, however, is that I WAS mentally prepared for that. The actions of the offending party altered my actions.

I stand by my assessment that you don't draw unless you are in a position where you realistically may have to use it. I stand by my assessment that you should be mentally in a position where you would use it if you are willing to draw it. I stand by my assessment that drawing without being in a position to use it physically or mentally is not a wise course of action.


But nowhere did I say that once a handgun leaves the holster, whether it is fired or not is out of our hands. As long as we have free will, that isn't the way of things-- regardless of what the gun-grabbers would have us believe.


I don't know if that alters your perception of my statement, but it is evident that I needed to clarify.


-- John

 

[BlindJustice]

I got a 686P, the seven shooter - and after handling it
it occurred to me that unlike a 6 shooter that has two
chambers visible on each side of the frame, the 686P
has 3 chamber mouths visible on each side of the frame.

So, besides the muzzle the other visible part on the
686P has a more vivually intimidating presentation ?

Or Would a 625 with the Varnes XPB 225 gr. BIG DIA.
HP make it look like a bundle of open seewer pipes ?


Intimidation is in the eye of the beholder, no?

that presumes the Rational Man, which meth heads are not

 

[AntiqueCollector]

I'd worry less about intimidation and more about effectiveness. I've carried guns that may look intimidating and I've carried others that did not. But all of them would have done the job if I needed them to. Some bad guys might laugh if I pull out one of my real old pocket revolvers (that shakes and rattles a bit) but they won't be if I have to pull the trigger.

 

[JerryM]

Size does matter, and so does bulk and weight. I find that I carry a KT P3AT a lot for that reason. I do not consider myself helpless with the .380. If I want something with more power I carry the Kahr P9. The other guns that I carry are a SA LW SS Compact .45, S&W 642, and Glock G26.

I know I am not going to carry a steel full size 1911. It is always better to have a .380 on your belt or in your pocket than a full size 1911 in the safe at home.

I guess one major reason that I carry the KT is that it is an inexpensive gun and I leave it out when I am not using it. I keep the others in a safe, and hate to go to the trouble of getting them out and loading them, etc.

Regards,
Jerry

 

[ShunZu]

When you really need it, an accurate, small .380 in the pocket is worth more than a .45 in the gun safe.

 

[Glockman17366]

In Pennsylvania, one is obligated to stop a threat to yourself or others (I'm not going into what constitutes a threat since this thread is about the "size" of the carry weapon). Please note, I wrote STOP, which doesn't necessarily mean kill.
I carry a .38 or 9 most the time. However, there was an attack on a man and GF in York PA several years ago that was stopped with a .32ACP.

The main thing is to have the weapon. Caliber is the carrier's choice. If one is comfortable with a .22, then that's the caliber to carry.

As I wrote, I do carry a .38 most frequently, followed by a 9 mm, there are times I carry a mouse gun (.32 ACP Beretta). I feel quite comfortable with that little handgun.

 

[possum]

i believe that the intimidation factor should never be a factor and i hate it when people say stuff in reference to it being intimidating, and thigs like "he'll poop his pants when he sees my chromed out desert eagle" i don't carry any gun because i think it will be intimidating, my opinion is people will either get a change of heart when you draw no matter what you have because it is a firearm or they aren't gonna stop no matter what you have and they are pllaned on carrying out what they were gonna do regardless.

i get some funny looks and people say some funny things about my small kahr k-40 but after they see what i am able to do with it at the range they normally change thier mind.