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Does temporary cavity do damage?

Discussion in 'Handguns: General Discussion' started by FerFAL, Sep 14, 2007.

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  1. FerFAL

    FerFAL Member

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  2. Vern Humphrey

    Vern Humphrey Member

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    Yep -- you can break boards that way.:p
     
  3. MCgunner

    MCgunner Member

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    Don't mess with Harry Callahan....:evil:
     
  4. Obiwan

    Obiwan Member

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    From the FBI HWFE report
     

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  5. CaesarI

    CaesarI Member

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    Results may vary

    As my medievalist wife likes to say: "It varies".

    Two factors impact the wounding ability of a temporary cavity:
    1. Type of tissue being penetrated.
    Some tissue is more elastic than other tissue. Muscle tissue is more elastic than brain tissue. More elastic tissue requires a larger temporary cavity before you will see damage caused by a temporary cavity.

    2. Size of the temporary cavity.
    This factor is directly tied to the first factor. A temporary cavity that has no effect on muscle tissue, can have a dramatic effect on brain tissue.

    These two factors explain why watermelons explode (not very elastic) and why properly calibrated ballistic gelatin does not (more elastic).

    I appreciate the service Brassfetcher is trying to do, testing ammunition is very expensive. I can sometimes get reasonable estimates from the data they post, unfortunately sometimes this is impossible as their methods are not as thorough, and hence, not as accurate as they could be.

    Breaking of boards during testing is very common when some people mistakenly test rifle rounds in gelatin blocks that are sized to handle pistol rounds. Sometimes this effect is also seen when people test particularly powerful handgun rounds. It should not be taken as evidence that the currently available information regarding the damaging potential of the temporary cavity is somehow flawed.

    The "temporary cavity is king" school of thought was believed by some government researchers until the late 80s. The method of evaluation was the NIJ's RII (Relative Incapacitation Index). It was a very, very simple method of evaluating bullet performance, much simpler than currently accepted methods. It was also easy for the amateur to model. The same is much less true of current testing methods.

    -Morgan
     
  6. ranger335v

    ranger335v Member

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    Tissue damage counts. What tissue it is and how badly it's "temporary disrupted" counts too. Caesar's wife has it right, as usual with questions like this, there is no clear answer.
     
  7. Vern Humphrey

    Vern Humphrey Member

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    Yeah -- but the target is already dead.;)
     
  8. CWL

    CWL Member

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    Typically only rifle ammunition can cause temporary cavities that are large enough to do damage, and it still depends on the elasticity of the particular tissues/organs being stretched. Pistol bullets in general do not create temp. wound cavity large enough.
     
  9. Soybomb

    Soybomb Member

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    Thankfully I have no wooden organs.
     
  10. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline Member

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  11. GunTech

    GunTech Member

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    The rule of thumb (according to several sources quopted in SIPRI's 'Antipersonnel weapons') is the round must have at least a velocity of 600m/s before cavitation has any discernable effect. As noted, the organ struck also has a huge bearing. Muscle is fairly resistant to stretch, the liver isn't.
     
  12. Hoppy590

    Hoppy590 Member

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    id hardly say "knock down power is a myth" when you get hit by a truck very little penetration takes place :p
    in handgun rounds, this is probibly negligable. but i wanted to make that truck joke
     
  13. mavracer

    mavracer Member

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    no
    the round must have at least a velocity of 600m/s before cavitation has a consistant meaningful effect.there's almost always a discernable effect there is damage larger than the expanded round.
    I have never stated this.what I'll argue and dispute is when I'm told temporary cavity does not happen and can not matter or can not do damage below 600 m/s or 2000 fps.because this is male bovine fecal matter.
    I have seen a bullet at ~1250 fps or <400 m/s do enough damage to lung tissue to cause death without entering the chest cavity.
    "sufficient penatration is king" but temporary cavity matters otherwise everybody would use FMJ and a .45 would be a signifigantly better stopper than a .357, and since they have co-existed for 72 years and we still have many members who disagree as to which is better.
     
  14. uncowboy

    uncowboy Member

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    The temp cavity can not be relied on as all will act differently. That is why the crushing is the PERMINATE dammage and all that you CAN rely on.
     
  15. FerFAL

    FerFAL Member

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    Notice that 357 magnum, 357 SIG, 38+P and 9mm+P, they all have better stopping power with fast and light, rather than heavy and slow, basically because of the temporary cavity they create. The linked pic is a 44 magnum, the cavity had enough energy to brake the wood board below the gelatin block.

    FerFAL
     
  16. Hauptmann

    Hauptmann Member

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  17. Obiwan

    Obiwan Member

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    Sigh....

    Thanks Haupt

    None are so blind as those that will not listen

    Or something like that

    There is plenty of good data out there....that has much more backing it up than "I just know this is true"
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2007
  18. mavracer

    mavracer Member

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    that street runs both ways
    http://www.ballisticstestinggroup.org


    reposted again " it can ,does, and will happen.
     
  19. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline Member

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    That's never been proven. My theory is it's a sales pitch for selling ammo that uses less of the most expensive part of the cartridge--the bullet. I've never seen any evidence that among standard handgun rounds (.32 ACP to .357 range) the faster, lighter rounds have more kiling power or do more damage than the heavier, slower rounds. ALL of the rounds are slow from that range of cartridges. And none of them have the velocity to generate a TC of sufficient magnitude to do real damage on a reliable basis. You'd have to move up to a .44 Mag or load a .357 with slow powder and fire it from a carbine before you start to see that kind of TC.

    Personally, I started loading slower and heavier with handguns when I encountered a case of a large man being shot in the belly with the .357 Sig, a round made fast and light by design. The bullet skirted his fat layer without doing anything but shaving some pounds off and making some puncture wounds in his skin. For handguns I'd rather use a bullet with enough sectional density to punch all the way through a human torso leaving two holes and a path for blood to come out both from the central organs.
    ]
     
  20. moxie

    moxie Member

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    "PERMINATE dammage" rocks!
     
  21. Obiwan

    Obiwan Member

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    Mavracer

    temp cavity exists.....but is relatively unimportant

    If you saw the damage, then it was permanent cavity...not temporary..unless you were taking an MRI of the victim at the time you could not and did not see temp cavity

    Handguns are pitiful popguns....there is not enough energy present to do any real damage by stretching tissue

    Holes that bleed or CNS damage...that is what incapacitates and/or kills

    FMJ penetrates further but makes smaller (dia ) holes for a given caliber

    Some hyper velocity HP's open up very big but do not penetrate enough to disrupt enough tissue to matter

    Someone can die from fright but that doesn't make the loudest firearm the most deadly :)
     
  22. DiN_BLiX

    DiN_BLiX Member

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    I think about it like this, I rather throw a brick at someone, than shoot them with a red rider BB gun. Bigger and slower wins, its NOT a race.
     
  23. mavracer

    mavracer Member

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    no hole in chest cavity,bullet did not enter, massave contusion to lungs animal died from lungs bleeding.
     
  24. mavracer

    mavracer Member

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    great logic, so you carry a brick not a .45,NOT.
     
  25. Vern Humphrey

    Vern Humphrey Member

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    What cartridge?
     
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