Does the primer alone create enough pressure to move the bullet into the barrel?

[Alllen Bundy]

Let's assume that a bullet was pressed into a shellcase WITHOUT ANY gunpowder. If that cartridge was fired, would the primer create enough pressure to move the bullet out of the firing chamber and into the barrel, let alone have enough pressure to force the bullet out of the muzzle of the barrel?

 

[troy fairweather]

Yes, good chance it won't exit but will surely be in the rifeing.

 

[JmacD]

Let's assume that a bullet was pressed into a shellcase WITHOUT ANY gunpowder. If that cartridge was fired, would the primer create enough pressure to move the bullet out of the firing chamber and into the barrel, let alone have enough pressure to force the bullet out of the muzzle of the barrel?

As a guy who had to improvise with an old cleaning rod, a hammer, a trailer tailgate, duct tape, and vice grips to help out a buddy, I can vouch for the fact it will… it reeeeaaaallllly!!! Stuck in his 10mm!

 

[GRIZ22]

I had a factory 30 carbine rd that (most likely) had no powder. The primer just pushed the fmj bullet to engage the rifling. You couldn't chamber another round. I'm guessing if it had been a lead bullet it may have gone further down the barrel.

The bullet was easily pushed out with a cleaning rod.

 

[tightgroup tiger]

Yes, a primer will stick one very easily in the riflings. Completely tie up the gun.

 

[Alllen Bundy]

Next question. Is it better to continue to push the stuck bullet forward and out of the muzzle end of the barrel, or should you push the bullet from the muzzle end back through the firing chamber?

And does it matter whether it is a rifle or a pistol barrel?

 

[JmacD]

Next question. Is it better to continue to push the stuck bullet forward and out of the muzzle end of the barrel, or should you push the bullet from the muzzle end back through the firing chamber?

And does it matter whether it is a rifle or a pistol barrel?

Or does it depend where in said barrel it has taken up residence? And does it depend on the bullet? If it’s barely in the rifling, it’s probably better to go backwards (imho). If it’s an expanding bullet/hp, if you push with the wrong thing, you complicate it by trying to expand the bullet. I’m no authority, but I have had to drive a couple out. They were a lot closer to chamber than muzzle, so they went backwards.

 

[stringnut]

I have always gone back to the chamber with a stuck bullet. My experience also is they are usually less than halfway.

 

[Havok7416]

Next question. Is it better to continue to push the stuck bullet forward and out of the muzzle end of the barrel, or should you push the bullet from the muzzle end back through the firing chamber?

And does it matter whether it is a rifle or a pistol barrel?

As someone who has deliberately stuck over 40 bullets that I can remember - you read that correctly - I can say fairly definitively that the bullet will tend to engage the rifling, particularly with a pistol round.

I actually made some squibs in the last few years to answer a THR member's questions on this same subject. As I recall he was gathering information to write a novel. I made 4 or 5 squibs (on purpose) and discharged them at my work bench. Then I took pictures and posted them in his thread. I have attached the pics that I took below. Notice the rifling marks in the bullets. These were all pushed out back to the chamber.

You won't hurt the barrel pushing the bullets out in either direction. In the fight between lead versus steel, the latter material "wins" every time (the lead and/or copper will deform to fit in the barrel). The issue I have with pushing the bullet to the muzzle is that it takes much more effort since you are moving the bullet much farther.

EDIT: The pics didn't load apparently. Trying again.

 

[ttittle]

I have had a couple squibs in 9mm over the years. Typically a couple taps with a brass hammer & punch and the bullet falls out the chamber. That is with standard primers. I don't know what a magnum primer would do.

 

[243winxb]

The primer firing does not always move bullets out of the case. Depends on neck tension/bullet hold & "case volume". Primers produce around 23,000 PSI on firing, no powder. (5.56) https://discover.dtic.mil/

Drive bullet to the closest exit. Protect muzzle. Use brass rods of different lengths. Some move easy, some hard.

A 30-06 , no powder, did not move my bullet. A 22-250 did not move the bullet when H450 stopped burning on firing.

See "Too Much Primer" - https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/ammunition_st_mamotaip_200909/100079

 

[JmacD]

don't know what a magnum primer would do.

Exactly what I was just wondering

 

[entropy]

I saw a friend of mine shoot at a clay pigeon, (we were shooting a round of Trap), hit and break it, with a shell that sounded "off". This was last Sunday. When we examined the hull, (we being several seasoned shot shell reloaders) we determined from the sound and examination of the hull that he had somehow loaded one without powder. The wad even cleared the barrel, barely.
I've had a few where there was so little powder, you had no problem seeing the shot column attempt to reach the clay, but not make it. I think the difference was in his primers vs. mine. I was using Win. 209's (back when you could still get them) his had a Federal 209A in it, a hotter primer.
I've never had a squib with my metallic reloads, but I had to pound a wad cutter back down into the case it attempted to exit from someone else's reload. My son gave me @ 150 of them, he did know who had reloaded them, came into them in a trade, but since he didn't own a .38 or .357 at the time, gave them to me. In a rare instance of not following my rule of not shooting others' reloads, I tried them. The first cylinderful was fine, but that one was just fired by a primer, about an inch into the 1 7/8" barrel of my S&W Bodyguard 38.

 

[marvin02]

Aguilar Colibri are .22lr rounds with only the primer. Aguila claims 420 FPS and 8 foot pounds of energy at the muzzle for a 20 grain bullet from just the primer. They might not make it out of a rifle barrel but work great in .22lr revolvers.

https://www.aguilaammo.com/products/22-colibr-i-long-rifle-subsonic-powderless-lead-bullet

 

[marvin02]

Ask Bruce Lee.

Do you mean Brandon Lee?

From what I read the prop gun in that case had a squib from being fired earlier with a dummy round made from live ammo that the primer mistakenly had not been removed from. It was then fired with a blank cartridge forcing the squib out of the barrel killing Brandon Lee. Multiple failures by the crew handling the props.

 

[markr6754]

I bought a number of solid brass rods in 0.3438" (9mm, 380 Auto), 0.375" (40 S&W), and 0.4375" (45 Auto) from Online Metals. They are each 12" long, suitable for all of my semi-auto pistols. I slight beveled the ends to make for easier entry into the muzzle. These rods just fit their respective barrels with no slop. I've had to use the 9mm rod on a couple ocassions, thankfully, not for squibs, per say, but stuck bullets that engaged the rifling but didn't chamber (most usually, coated lead).

When I actually needed a squib rod due to severly underpowdered factory ammo that stuck 3/4 way down my Beretta 92FS barrel, I was unequipped. Not knowing any better, I allowed the range counter rep attempt to remove the squib. He actually used a long, thin, steel scribe...no idea what use that was in a shooting range...and he proceeded to destroy my rifling as the scribe passed through the FMJ bullet, so all the resistance he encountered while hitting the scribe end with a hammer was actually my steel barrel. After literally destroying my barrel, he switched to a metal drill bit...drilled out the center of the bullet, then used a wooden dowel to easily push the bullet back out through the muzzle.

Lesson 1...if one can avoid a squib...do it!
Lesson 2...if one has neither the experience, nor the tools to safely remove a squib, do not entrust your barrel to someone else who has neither, but also has no vested interest in your barrel

 

[Havok7416]

The primer firing does not always move bullets out of the case. Depends on neck tension/bullet hold & "case volume". Primers produce around 23,000 PSI on firing, no powder. (5.56) https://discover.dtic.mil/

Drive bullet to the closest exit. Protect muzzle. Use brass rods of different lengths. Some move easy, some hard.

A 30-06 , no powder, did not move my bullet. A 22-250 did not move the bullet when H450 stopped burning on firing.

See "Too Much Primer" - https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/ammunition_st_mamotaip_200909/100079

23,000 PSI is a higher pressure than full pressure load in certain cartridges. The number I have always heard referenced is 3,000 psi. My testing seems to support the lower number as well but I have no way to actually test anything. When I have tested, I often will discharge the gun in my basement or just out the door. The sound is very similar to a cap gun with a true no-powder charge.

On a side note, for those looking for a squib rod, Arredondo makes a purpose-built unit. It is plastic. Mine has held up for many years with no sign of wear (and I've used it a lot). The only downside to it is it isn't long enough for barrels longer than about 6". For those I use an old section of aluminum cleaning rod. As mentioned it only takes a few firm taps with either rod to dislodge the bullet.
https://www.arredondoaccessories.com/product/squib-rod-multi-tool/

Also, I added pics to my first post above.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Next question. Is it better to continue to push the stuck bullet forward and out of the muzzle end of the barrel, or should you push the bullet from the muzzle end back through the firing chamber?

And does it matter whether it is a rifle or a pistol barrel?

What’s even more fun is when it’s a revolver and the bullet is wedged in the forcing cone. Now you are pounding on a loaded gun from the boom end.

 

[243winxb]

3,000 psi

Could be? Guy sent me this photo. No flash hole. I added the 23000.

No. 41 primer specification has not changed. The pressure in the primer
pocket is calculated to be approximately 23,890 psi/V (165 MPa/V). This value is
derived simply by using the inner diameter of the primer cup (0.146 inch) to
determine the area the force acts over5
and by taking into account the gauge
multiplication factor of 400 that is built into the acquisition system.

See primer output. https://discover.dtic.mil/results/?q=Primer output#gsc.tab=0&gsc.q=Primer output&gsc.page=1

 

[rfwobbly]

Although in most cases the bullet will be lodged in the rifling, no one can say with any certainty due to the number of variables...
• Type of primer (magnum vs. standard)
• Brand of primer (Federal vs. off-brand)
• Fit of bullet in the barrel
• Bullet construction (lead vs. jacketed)

 

[N555]

Do you mean Brandon Lee?

From what I read the prop gun in that case had a squib from being fired earlier with a dummy round made from live ammo that the primer mistakenly had not been removed from. It was then fired with a blank cartridge forcing the squib out of the barrel killing Brandon Lee. Multiple failures by the crew handling the props.

Yeah was Brandon Lee .
Yeah a "dummy round" with a live primer pushed a real bullet in to bore, then days maybe weeks later firing a pyrotechnic blank cleared the squib...

 

[.308 Norma]

If that cartridge was fired, would the primer create enough pressure to move the bullet out of the firing chamber and into the barrel,

Maybe. Maybe not.
I was shooting some of my handloaded .38 Specials once, and thought I'd had a misfire because I was wearing decent hearing protection and didn't even hear so much as a "pop." Foolishly, I didn't stop right then - I just went ahead and fired the other 2 or 3 rounds in my revolver's cylinder before ejecting the empty cases and what I thought was the round that misfired.
Someone was watching over me that day because when I got home, I pulled the bullet out of the so-called "misfire" and quickly saw that the bullet's base was burnt black. I'd obviously completely forgotten to put any powder in the case, but because I had a good crimp, the primer alone didn't create enough pressure to push the bullet out of the case and into the barrel. If the primer would have had enough pressure to push the bullet out of the case and into the barrel, my little 38 Special revolver would have been demolished when I foolishly fired the next round, and I might have been a finger or two short of five on my right hand.

 

[.308 Norma]

Although in most cases the bullet will be lodged in the rifling, no one can say with any certainty due to the number of variables...
• Type of primer (magnum vs. standard)
• Brand of primer (Federal vs. off-brand)
• Fit of bullet in the barrel
• Bullet construction (lead vs. jacketed)

Yep. And how strong of a "grip" (like how much crimp) the case has on the bullet is yet another "variable" that can determine whether or not the bullet will leave the case by "primer power" alone.

 

[thump_rrr]

Let's assume that a bullet was pressed into a shellcase WITHOUT ANY gunpowder. If that cartridge was fired, would the primer create enough pressure to move the bullet out of the firing chamber and into the barrel, let alone have enough pressure to force the bullet out of the muzzle of the barrel?

I’m my 1911 it was 1/4” or less from allowing the slide to go fully into battery.
That was my one and only squib the year I started reloading.

 

[Alllen Bundy]

Yep. And how strong of a "grip" (like how much crimp) the case has on the bullet is yet another "variable" that can determine whether or not the bullet will leave the case by "primer power" alone.

That crimp can vary considerably. I've removed the bullets from 5 different name brands of 9mm ammo with an impact bullet remover. Remington Range FMJ ammo required only one or two whacks to remove the bullet. Speer Gold Dot JHP required 2 to 3 hard whacks to remove the bullet. Sig Elite Performance JHP required 4 to 5 hard whacks to remove the bullet.