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Does this concern anyone else?

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by Uncle Mike, Jun 10, 2009.

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  1. Uncle Mike

    Uncle Mike Member

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    Is it just me or are a few corporate holding companies buying up all the 'arms' manufacturers.

    Another one bites the dust, now we'll have to bid farewell to the fine Dakota built firearms... because if Remington is going to start making them... yuk!

    The fact that one large company owns a lot of the smaller ones... what if that large company decides to get rid of all the smaller companies for one reason or another... I just don't like it.:cuss:
     
  2. trstafford

    trstafford Member

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    Could be a good thing

    A lot of the manufacturers of hunting arms are not faring well because everyone is buying black rifles. The big boys have new product to introduce but can't keep up with orders so they are not bringing them out. They can use the small companies to make the new products or help with back orders.
     
  3. sarduy

    sarduy Member

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    what about if the gov get a hold of the big company like it did with GMC and decide to close them all?:cuss:
     
  4. Kind of Blued

    Kind of Blued Member

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    We start more. It's how America works. :)
     
  5. Uncle Mike

    Uncle Mike Member

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    hmmmm... Hitler did the same thing....

    ... and Stalin-
    ... and Hirohito-
    ... and Saddam Hussein-
    ... and Mussolini-
    ... and Ho Chi Minh-
    ... and Alija Izetbegovic'

    And the list goes on...
     
  6. Shear_stress

    Shear_stress Member

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    Uh, GM practically begged to be "taken a hold of".
     
  7. Guitargod1985

    Guitargod1985 Member

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    I thought Remington, Buhsmaster, Marlin, etc. were held by Cerberus Capital Management.
     
  8. P.B.Walsh

    P.B.Walsh Member

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    It dosent really scare me, but it might or might not be a bad thing, time will only tell.
     
  9. Justin

    Justin Moderator Staff Member

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    They all started privately-held holding companies that they used to consolidate smaller companies in order to get products to market in a more efficient fashion?

    How very odd, I don't remember reading anything about that. Please enlighten us.
     
  10. ArmedBear

    ArmedBear Member

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    I think that calling Remington a gunmaker is being somewhat generous of late. "Innovator and designer" are almost laughable.

    The only thing about this conglomerate that bothers me is that Marlin is no longer an independent company. They'll now be under pressure to build junk like the rest, instead of the fine, competitively-priced guns they've somehow continued to build while their competitors (e.g. Winchester) fell all around them.

    Black rifle makers (even good ones) are a dime a dozen these days. "Bushmaster" meant a lot more during the Clinton years than it does now. Politically, its good to have big gunmakers whose products are under the threat of bans, though. I've never actually purchased a complete AR in a box, and I probably never will, so the conglomerate makes very little difference to me in the black rifle area, except politically, where I think it's a good thing.

    LC Smith is a joke: Turkish guns by yet another name? Parker is kind of funny, too. For that money, I'll just get something high-end and British, and have more options to choose from (if I ever have that money to spend on a shotgun). Maybe this holding company will actually do something good with LC Smith and Parker. That would be a good thing, though I don't think it'll happen.

    H&R? Unless they make their revolvers again, I don't care all that much. Buffalo Classic is kinda nice, though...

    Big conglomerates who think they can run a bunch of boutique companies like they're commodity producers are almost inevitably abject failures. They tend to focus on cost savings, building junk and resting on a past reputation (Remington was edging closer and closer to this on its own). See AMF.

    I'm guessing that half these companies will be gone in 10 years, after the market has rejected them for building junk. The government won't have to do a thing.

    Maybe, like AMF Harley, they'll be bought in bankruptcy by their employees and stage a comeback.

    Maybe, like AMF Voit, they'll go from the top of the heap to the trash heap.
     
  11. Uncle Mike

    Uncle Mike Member

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    ..."in order to get product to market in a more efficient manner"-
    I am not saying that these people did what your suggesting-
    And, IMHO, I do not think freedom group is doing that either.

    They(the above list) did start privately- held holding companies as to manipulate industry pre war(s).
    Enlighten your self with a search on some of the antics these guys did to further their agenda.

    These guys bought up companies with state monies and quietly dissolved some and furthered others so as to build the might they needed for the looming conflicts.

    This probably has nothing to do with Freedom Group... just thought it might raise some concern as to one company having controle over so many areas we all love.

    peace:D
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2009
  12. Justin

    Justin Moderator Staff Member

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    Soooo...what you're saying is that they're pretty much nothing alike, and trying to draw comparisons between Freedom Group and Hitler is without merit.
     
  13. Reid73

    Reid73 Member

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    IIRC, about three years ago Dakota Arms Inc. was in Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection, and its assets were sold to a ground of investors using the name Dakota Arms LLC. Presumably (???) the "new" company was finding it hard to stay afloat in these challenging economic times, and so the deal was done.

    "One of the largest manufacturers in the world of firearms and ammunition". Check.

    "The world’s leading innovator, designer, manufacturer, and marketer of firearms, ammunition, and related products". In their dreams! :rolleyes:
     
  14. ArmedBear

    ArmedBear Member

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    I'd agree with you Justin.

    However, I do think that holding companies can be a lot like Eric Cartman (bloated, navel-gazing, and blind to their own problems). And Eric Cartman fantasizes about being Hitler.

    So there's SOME connection. It's about as tenuous as it gets, of course...:D

    [​IMG]
     
  15. Deckard

    Deckard Member

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    Its generally a bad thing for the consumer when companies become this bloated. The guys on the top get further and further away from the finished product and little things like quality and customer service seem to be neglected. Hopefully these companies don't do to themselves what the American Auto Industry has done. I don't want to see anymore American companies go under or be sold off to foreign interests, especially emblems like Remington and Marlin. That said, I'll never buy a substandard rifle just to help them out...I'm a consumer first. So when I buy my next bolt action it'll probably be a CZ.
     
  16. Reid73

    Reid73 Member

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    I won't shed any tears over Remington (the GMC of firearms manufacturers).

    Marlin, well, that would be a shame; but there are so many of their products available secondhand that anyone who really wants one will not have to do without.

    Exactly right!
     
  17. P.B.Walsh

    P.B.Walsh Member

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    What's wrong with Remington?
     
  18. Reid73

    Reid73 Member

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    Basically, the same things that are wrong with GM.
     
  19. Green Dragoon

    Green Dragoon Member

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    This is the norm in almost every industry. Many name brands we grew up with now belong to the company they used to compete with. One can only hope that they do not sell out to the wrong people.
     
  20. Reid73

    Reid73 Member

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    Well, as King of Blued suggests, the 'hidden hand' of the marketplace will eventually triumph. If existing manufacturers produce only shoddy goods, there will be a niche for new players to emerge.
     
  21. Uncle Mike

    Uncle Mike Member

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    I did also, maybe Freedom and Cerberus are intertwined somehow?
    I'll have to check into that.

    I do agree that it is better to have these companies bought by American holding companies and not foreign firms.

    However we can reasonably assume, and it would be an assumption, that the quality of the future produced firearms by these companies will suffer... just look at Remington.

    As far as larger companies consolidating a group of smaller companies to get their product more efficiently to the consumer.... a.... no!

    consolidating to increase their profit margin, buy up the compitition or for some kind of political venue is more like it.
    :D
     
  22. ArmedBear

    ArmedBear Member

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    That only works when you have a bunch of smaller local players, all producing a virtually identical commodity.

    When you have a number of niche companies, playing in a similar marketplace with different products, mostly boutique products, I can't see ALL that much room to improve efficiency with size. What you get is a bunch of suits from corporate, flying in, telling you "make it cheaper" and flying home.

    Remington could do many things better than it does. But having distant corporate overlords doesn't make that any easier. Remington could, and should, improve itself.
     
  23. Uncle Mike

    Uncle Mike Member

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    yea, and that's after the layoffs-
     
  24. JohnBT

    JohnBT Member

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    Freedom Group is owned by Ceberus Capital Management. It's the firearms branch.

    "So, who are these guys? Well, take off your tinfoil beanies. One of the managing directors for Cerberus is George K. Kollitides and he is running for Board of Directors for the National Rifle Association. Here’s one bio:

    Nominated by the NRA Nominating Committee, Kollitides has spent his adult life supporting the Second Amendment. A Benefactor member, he became an NRA Life member as a young man. He serves on the Boards of Remington and Bushmaster. He is an avid shooter and hunter, and is a Life member of TSRA, CRPA, NYSRPA, ATA, Boone and Crockett (Associate), Houston Safari Club, NMLRA and Quail Unlimited.

    Kollitides is a member of Remington Collectors, SAFE, NWTF, and the U.S. Sportsmen’s Alliance. As a Managing Director of Cerberus Capital Management, he oversees the firm’s interests in the firearms industry. He has managed numerous financial transactions and is a noted financial forum speaker. Kollitides has shot since childhood and enjoys hunting with family and friends.

    His wife and children are NRA Life members. As a staunch defender of Second Amendment freedoms, he is honored to be nominated for the NRA Board."
     
  25. Uncle Mike

    Uncle Mike Member

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    Well, there's our answer! Thanx JohnBT :D

    There may be hope! Let us all hope this guy does right.:)

    Maybe freedom is consolidating in the name of preservation!
     
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