Domestic Violence convictions

[MechAg94]

OK...How about this for an example: My daughter's mother-in-law's boyfriend (you still with me?) broke into his ex-wife's house and threatened to kill her in front of their children. This guy is a violent drunk who has beaten this ex-wife before she was the ex. She finally got a no-contact order filed, but it wasn't easy (and probably isn't worth the cost of the paper it is printed on).

In addition, my grandson (who is the light of my life) told me this SOB hit him in the stomach. My daughter and son-in-law no longer allow their son to see his other grandma if the BF is going to be around. What I would like to do to him is not High Road and would possibly result in the loss of my right to CCW. He truly “…is not worth it.”

Hey, I was referring to the sort of domestic disputes that were more non-violent. I have no problem with justice for scum bags like that.

A local radio guy here did a story on a mother who was raped, got pregnant and decided to have the kid. The rapists parents sued for visitation rights and were awarded them. The radio guy was livid that the judge would allow it. Apparently the mother was stuck with paying legal fees to fight it and paying for the lawyer to represent the kid. She couldn't afford to appeal it like she ought to be able to. A bunch of callers had additional stories of similar "system abuse" as I would call it.
There was another similar case of a woman whose ex-husband got out of prison and sued for custody. Similar BS.

Most of this had to do with a judge who didn't give a damn and who appointed her buddy as attorney for the kid. Since it was a mother who couldn't afford to fight it, it didn't look like things would change quickly.

 

[hanno]

Former prosecutor and former defense counsel here. A suggestion - if you ever find yourself charged with Domestic Violence, get a lawyer. Do not go to a pretrial meeting with the prosecutor without a lawyer and accept a plea. Ever. Whatever deal the prosecutor is willing to offer you, he will still offer to your attorney.

Your attorney, if he has experience with DVs, will also know what other alternatives are available for first time offenders - diversion (no conviction if certain conditions are met), plea to a different charge so RKBA is not lost, etc.
Of course, the attorney may also recommend trial if there is a decent chance for acquittal - likelihood the other party won't show up to testify or will show up and testify but not satisfy the elements of the offense.

Attorneys cost money but you might just find it is the best money you ever spent.

And a guy who holds a knife to his wife's throat because she told him she had an affair, should be in a cell and lose his RKBA.

Oh, and one last thing, be nice to your spouses, yell all you want, just don't engage in any physical stuff or even threats. Life is too short.

 

[theken206]

"If someone held a knife to the throat to a woman who was important to me (my sister, or my mother, a girlfriend, even an ex-girlfriend),"

good way to disappear where i come from, high road answer or not its the truth.

 

[mordechaianiliewicz]

Len S, you think like me. Often the worst thing you can do to someone isn't violent at all.

 

[littlegator]

Nicki - it may be possible to have the record expunged depending on the crime and after a certain waiting period, however, I don't know the law in California. The waiting period is tolled (does not start) until after time served, probation if any, and fees/fines, are completely paid. Additionally, if there is a restraining order against him, he most likely cannot have a gun during that time either. Again, this is not legal advice - it's merely an opinion on the net.

 

[Ergosphere]

be nice to your spouses, yell all you want, just don't engage in any physical stuff

No "physical stuff?" Man, that takes all the fun out of marriage...

(J/K I know what you mean, but it sounded funny. )

As for violence or assault against a spouse such as described in the OP, I have no problem with the RKBA being rescinded for that sort of conduct. That said, non-violent contact between spouses during an argument (such as brushing past a spouse on the way out the door) should not be a crime.

 

[nicki]

Follow up

I don't justify holding a knife or any other weapon on someone, but the reality is emotions are what moves people to action.

He didn't plan it, he reacted because he was angry because he was betrayed and he did hold himself back. He told her that it just wasn't worth it.

His wife and him are still together, but the relationship is strained.
He forgave her for adultery, but he can't forget.

When she goes out, if she makes herself pretty, it is always in the back of his mind, is she cheating. Logically, he says he has to let go, but he just can't shake that feeling.

You expect your enemies to do you harm, but when friends betray you it hurts because it is a stab in the heart. When you significant other betrays you, it stabs you in your soul.

Most of us are rational and incontrol of our actions, but things can happen that would cause many of us to snap.

Humans act emotionally, that is the way we are.

To expect people are just gong to be calm and rational after a major emotional trauma is not realistic.

Domestic violence is a serious problem, but overzealous enforcement is probably counter productive to reducing real domestic violence.

Each couple has their own unique problems and to say that tempers don't every flare is crazy.

I would say a large amount of men have been physically hit by wives and girlfriends which according to the law here in California is domestic abuse.

Of course many men would be embarassed to call the cops unless a wife or girlfriend did something really serious.



Nicki

 

[mekender]

sorry but use of a deadly weapon isnt overzealous enforcement....

now my wifes best friend had a situation that was a total load of crap... her boyfriend choked her up against a wall... as she was struggling to get away, her car keys scratched the guys face... when the cops showed up, he had the mark on him, so she went to jail...

i dont have a problem with the idea of the laws, but the blind enforcement is a crock...

 

[Wineoceros]

I don't justify holding a knife or any other weapon on someone, but the reality is emotions are what moves people to action.

Part of growing up is learning how to prevent your emotions from ruling you completely.

He didn't plan it, he reacted because he was angry because he was betrayed and he did hold himself back. He told her that it just wasn't worth it.

After putting a knife to her throat.

His wife and him are still together, but the relationship is strained.

That's an understatement. I'd bet good money that it won't last.

Most of us are rational and incontrol of our actions, but things can happen that would cause many of us to snap.

I've been driven to some pretty serious anger in my time, but I've never reacted to it by physically threatening someone's life.

Humans act emotionally, that is the way we are.

When we grow up, we learn to keep it in check enough to keep from killing one another.

To expect people are just gong to be calm and rational after a major emotional trauma is not realistic.

Perhaps you ought to consider the possibility of a significant amount of gray area in between "calm and rational" and putting knives to people's throats.

You're attempting to rationalize and excuse what was inexcusible, emotionally underdeveloped behavior.

 

[hanno]

He didn't plan it, he reacted because he was angry because he was betrayed and he did hold himself back. He told her that it just wasn't worth it.

In short, he doesn't think, he just reacts emotionally. That boy needs to grow up quickly before he ends up in prison.

 

[rainbowbob]

His wife and him are still together, but the relationship is strained. He forgave her for adultery, but he can't forget.

Boo-friggin-hoo...poor him! He “forgave" but he can't “forget". Nicki, I'm sincerely worried about the woman who would stay with a man that held a knife to her throat. She should have pressed charges and filed for divorce. I think she is in very real danger right now.

I'm also concerned that you would consider having this man for a friend and would continue to rationalize his bizarre and felonious actions. I think you may also be in danger.

You expect your enemies to do you harm, but when friends betray you it hurts because it is a stab in the heart.

Actually, adultery is only a stab to one's pride. If you can’t “forget” - Move on! Get over it!

A stab in the heart (or more accurately, throat) is what your friend almost did to his wife.

 

[Ergosphere]

You expect your enemies to do you harm, but when friends betray you it hurts because it is a stab in the heart. When you significant other betrays you, it stabs you in your soul.

I know that pain all too well. There's no way to restore trust after such a betrayal. This does not sound like a healthy or stable relationship.

To expect people are just gong to be calm and rational after a major emotional trauma is not realistic.

I've been betrayed before (and she was almost sadistic about it). When the extent of betrayal became evident, I walked away. Yes, it was emotional and messy and I still have anger even many years later. But I never threatened, abused, or assaulted the lady; I took the "high road" and acted with maturity.

Anger is understandable, but the difference between sentient people and animals is self-awareness, which includes rational control of our emotions. Your "friend" should be in prison, IMO.

 

[HOME DEPOT GEORGE]

I was convicted of violation of a restraining order and making threats 18 years ago in new jersey and a few years ago I hired a lawer and was able to get that and a few other stupid things when I was 21 expunged from my record and by the advice of a friend who works at a LGS waited 6 months after the final judgment to purchase and never had a problem. One piece of advice, if you get your record expunged keep a copy of the final judgment handy just in case of a legal issue like if you had to use a gun in self defense or any other reason law enforcement may have to run a backround check. Mine states that any and all arrests and convictions are deemed to never have happened so I can fill out a backround check and legally check no in the boxes that ask about domestic violence.

 

[nicki]

Folow up

I have associations with diverse groups of people.

Few are what I call close friend's and none of my close friends have gotten into legal jams.

I learn from people, both from their successes and their setbacks.

You can learn alot from failures, and I would rather learn from other people's failures rather than my own.

My "friend" who is really just someone I casually run into at the gym, but gives great advice on body building deeply regrets his past transgression.

He has no interest in guns.

My concern is he made a mistake and now he is potentially barred for life from owning guns. What other rights do people can people easily loose?

If something happens in the future with his wife, he is just going to walk.

The reality is few people have sterile relationships, half of marriages end in divorce and domestic violence laws can be easily abused.

Couples in divorce do nasty and spiteful things to each other.

I have ran into many correctional officers and sheriffs who are now effectively indentured servants because of divorce.

Many had to do mandatory overtime due to staff shortages and it ruined their marriages.

The domestic abuse card was used to undermine their positions in divorce proceedings. Their ex wives were willing to destroy their careers with allegatons of spouse abuse.

People make mistakes, but after they have paid for their mistakes, they should be able to move on with their lives.

People should not lose any of their rights for life unless there is a compelling reason not to restore them.

Domestic violence is a problem, I would say at least 30 percent of all the women I know have had to file restraining orders at one time or another in their lives to deal with psycho ex partners.

Many have had to move, change jobs, etc. etc.

The current laws need serious revisions. One size does not fit all.


Nicki








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[jaholder1971]

The knife to the throat is an extreme example. The same conviction can be sought for trivial things such as slamming a door or pushing past a spouse/girlfriend on your way to leave the house. The laws are heavy handed and unconstitutional.

Yes, but that's the example given.

Since it was a misdemeanor, he shouldn't be denied. However he also should have never, ever been given a plea bargain IMHO.

Dude needs a new friend.

 

[jaholder1971]

I have associations with diverse groups of people.

Few are what I call close friend's and none of my close friends have gotten into legal jams.

I learn from people, both from their successes and their setbacks.

You can learn alot from failures, and I would rather learn from other people's failures rather than my own.

My "friend" who is really just someone I casually run into at the gym, but gives great advice on body building deeply regrets his past transgression.

He has no interest in guns.

My concern is he made a mistake and now he is potentially barred for life from owning guns. What other rights do people can people easily loose?

If something happens in the future with his wife, he is just going to walk.

The reality is few people have sterile relationships, half of marriages end in divorce and domestic violence laws can be easily abused.

Couples in divorce do nasty and spiteful things to each other.

I have ran into many correctional officers and sheriffs who are now effectively indentured servants because of divorce.

Many had to do mandatory overtime due to staff shortages and it ruined their marriages.

The domestic abuse card was used to undermine their positions in divorce proceedings. Their ex wives were willing to destroy their careers with allegatons of spouse abuse.

People make mistakes, but after they have paid for their mistakes, they should be able to move on with their lives.

People should not lose any of their rights for life unless there is a compelling reason not to restore them.

Domestic violence is a problem, I would say at least 30 percent of all the women I know have had to file restraining orders at one time or another in their lives to deal with psycho ex partners.

Many have had to move, change jobs, etc. etc.

The current laws need serious revisions. One size does not fit all.


Nicki

Nicki,

Yes, divorce and domestic violence has screwed gunowners all over America thanks to Lautenburg and other laws.

But do you know what precipitated those laws? Extremely dumb@ss stunts like your friend's at the Gym and the hand wringers who think passing a law is going to magically change them overnight.

 

[Pilgrim]

Many couples have fights, and many people have stressful relationships.

When my PMS moved out, I didn't say a word. I gave her money equal to half our mortgage payment so she could get a decent place to live. I paid her auto insurance. I didn't go near her except in public places with plenty of witnesses.

By the time I filed for divorce, it was established she could support herself and pay her own bills. I was reimbursed for the property that was mine before our marriage. She was left with the business I helped her build. I kept my pensions.

I had moved my guns out of the state so there was no danger of them being confiscated by the law.

I filed for divorce after moving to another state, so she couldn't claim I was stalking/harassing/threatening her. All contact after filing for divorce was done through my attorney.

All in all, it worked out pretty well. I am the happiest I have ever been in my entire life. I'm pretty sure she isn't so happy.

Pilgrim

 

[che_70b]

I firmly believe in the shall not be infringed part of the 2nd. It also seems to me that the guy did not actually hurt his wife, he thought about it real hard obviously, but at the moment of truth he let her go. Now from a self defense stand point in her shoes I would have been fighting back hard, but from a how the law ,should, be stand point he did not cross the line but did walk away.

 

[RiflemanTripleEight]

Too bad so sad. Don't threaten to kill people if you want to hang on to your rights.

 

[rainbowbob]

It also seems to me that the guy did not actually hurt his wife...he did not cross the line but did walk away.

He DID cross the line - and he only walked away because he chose an unarmed, defenseless victim to terrorize.

I'm curious if you would think that no line had been crossed if a man held a knife to YOUR throat?

 

[Wineoceros]

I firmly believe in the shall not be infringed part of the 2nd.

So do I. But I also firmly believe that you may forfeit your rights via your own dumbarsed actions.

He DID cross the line - and he only walked away because he chose an unarmed, defenseless victim to terrorize.

I'm curious if you would think that no line had been crossed if a man held a knife to YOUR throat?

+1

These lame rationalizations ("Well, he didn't actually slit her throat.") are really quite sillly.

 

[jaholder1971]

It also seems to me that the guy did not actually hurt his wife, he thought about it real hard obviously, but at the moment of truth he let her go. Now from a self defense stand point in her shoes I would have been fighting back hard, but from a how the law ,should, be stand point he did not cross the line but did walk away.

I'm having a REALLY hard time staying High Road here.

I suggest you go back and read the difference between Assault and Battery, specifically Aggravated Assault and Aggravated Battery. What this clown did was Assault by every standard in the U.S. He aggravated the situation by using a weapon, which is a felony in nearly every state in the union.

This sounds like one of the most lame@ssed reasons to excuse Domestic Violence I've ever heard. I've been falsely accused of Domestic Battery in the past (3 years and $5K later my nightmare ended with a dismissal) and oppose the Lautenburg law to the hilt, but anyone who wonders how in the world anyone would want to pass something like it needs only to look at this post.

 

[Zoogster]

The domestic violence laws are bad, usualy the examples are far more telling than the one you gave. The guy in your example was in fact lucky. What he did was a felony 'assault with a deadly' weapon in CA, and a felony anywhere else in the nation under a similar statute such as 'aggravated assault'.

That means in reality he would be a prohibited person anyplace in the country if the original charges stuck.

The domestic violence laws, both the firearm prohibition aspect as well as many states taking it further and requiring officers to arrest and press charges if there was even any mention of "domestic violence" (which does not require contact) contact regardless of the desires of the individuals involved add up to some interesting unconstitutional situations.

If a woman has an emotional outburst, begins breaking stuff or even strikes a man, and the man grabs her wrists and keeps her from doing more damage, a neighbor hears something and calls the police and they arrive...Both will go to jail. That is if both sides are honest. He held her wrists, probably strong enough to leave a mark if she was struggling, and she assaulted and perhaps battered him.

Now if one side or both sides are dishonest and accuse eachother of things that didn't happen it could be even worse.
A simple yelling match could result in one or both sides going to jail for domestic violence if when the police arrive one or both sides is creating stories about violence against the other, perhaps as a defense against something they actualy did do, which many people do.

When I was younger I knew some pretty vindictive individuals, one girl even smacked herself in the mouth a few times drawing blood to get her boyfriend in trouble because he cheated on her. She showed it to someone to get them to beat him up, and someone else called the police and reported him for it. I no longer associated with her. If she could do that to someone else, she was not a good person, and that could be me some day. A great way to learn a lot about someone is to see how they treat people they do not like or are upset with. Remember you at any time could become that person.

Well many states have a mandatory requirment that an arrest is made if there is even any mention of domestic violence, regardless of what either party wants.
Domestic violence does not even require physical contact.

Many people do not understand the legal difference between an assault and a battery. Battery is when contact is actualy made, an assault however is just a physical threat or implication whether or not it is followed through. Raising your hand or even getting into someone's face during an argument can be an assault, no contact is necessary. The act which is intimidating can be taken as a threat of violence and is an assault. Pointing your finger at someone in an argument could even be an assault.

Many police and military have lost thier careers both from legitimate misdemeanor as well as false domestic violence accusations. Many citizen's have lost an important civil right.
The Lautenburg amendment should be repealed and is a serious violation of the constitution.
However your example is probably one of the worst examples for that. Your example is in fact better for supporting it than anything.
A guy made a life threatening threat with a weapon while in no physical danger because he was upset with someone. He commited a serious violent felony, and only recieved a misdemeanor because of a plea.

There is many here who do not believe in the Lautenburg amendment.
There is many here who do not believe in non violent felonies taking away constitutional guaranteed rights.
There is even people that believe no constitutionaly granted right should be removed from someone regardless of what crime they have commited once they are a free man.

You however have gone beyond all of that. You are asking for sympathy for a man that practicly got away with a serious violent felony he did in fact commit, and served no time as a result of it.

My personal opinion is that he should have been charged and convicted for the crime which he commited, served the years in prison as a violent offender that such a charge warrants, and then been released a free man with all his rights.
That however is just my opinion.
He instead served no time, but did lose his rights. The system is backwards.

 

[yenchisks]

I think most of you are ignorant,and miss the point,I don't care if two poeple beat the sh$$ out off each other,nothing should take your 2a away...nothing..say a guy beats his wife goe's to jail and lose's his 2a rights,doe's that stop him from thinking,if he wish he can still get a firearm ,bat, knife a fn rock for that matter ,if someone is determined they'll find a way to do what ever it is there going to do ,taking 2a from abusers,is only a infringment, on God given rights,it's one step to take your 2a away you d@#$ a@$ ,whats next ,speeding, wake up!!!!!!!!!!!!! most of you say id leave if my wife/husban was caught cheating,well then you don't love them very much,ill just walk away no problem, bull,

 

[boggyboy72]

Puting a knife to someones throat is not a ''spousal quarrel''.I can't beleve a woman is defending this guy.