Don't take this the wrong way

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by ranger53, Nov 28, 2007.

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  1. ranger53

    ranger53 Member

    Aug 14, 2006
    I understand that in some situations and all you will need to take a 200 to 300 yd. shot. But for the most part, 100 yds is the max. Back a few years ago, I was at the range sighting in my win. 30-30. Got it sighted in at 25 yds and proceeded to the 100 yd. deal. I was all over the place. I couldn't understand it . Thank goodness, there was an older gentleman there! He had been watching what was going on. He came over and looked at my rifle. Then he said, I see the problem. the scope was loose. Stupid me, He said don't worry, I'll tighten it up. He told to rezero it. Now you can sight it in at 100yds, or you can be smart and sight it in at 50yds. I asked him why 50 yds. Well, this is mainly a brush gun, and it will be good at 100yds, you want to become a better hunter, don't you? I told him sure. Let the deer come in as close as possible. He told me the muzzle velocity will be the same at any distance, but your kinetic energy will be more at a closer shot. ;) One other thing is, you don't have to walk out so far to pick up the blood trail, because usually it will punch all the way through. If your aim is true and the right shot is made the deer will drop right there. Finding the deer will be easier, too. I took his advise and sure enough, for close shots he made a lot of sense! One other thing he told me was read and look at the anatomy of the quarry you will be hunting from deer and other critters. Study the anatomy, and make shots and practice shooting to be proficient. Knowing where to shoot is monumental he told me. I guess what I'm trying to say is, listen to these older gentlemen. True they might not have the technical expertise, but they make it up with experience. :D;)
  2. 10X

    10X Member

    Apr 21, 2006
    Colorado Springs
    Sounds like you received some good advice from a fellow with experience. Yes, you should listen. The older I get, the more I listen to those with sense and experience.

    The only thing I will question is the 100 yard maximum. You are in NC. In the Colorado flat lands, let alone mountain meadows, you quickly get beyond 100 or beyond 300 yards. If you are after a trophy, sometimes long shots are the only shots.
  3. K3

    K3 Member

    Nov 14, 2006
    Looking through the scope at a coyote
    100 yards is a minimum shot where I hunt. 200 is normal, and I've taken several deer at around 300. Longest was 338 according to the laser.
  4. JohnKSa

    JohnKSa Moderator Staff Member

    Jan 1, 2003
    DFW Area
    I agree that the closer the shot the more likely it is to connect and hit where you want it to.

    However I disagree with zeroing a smokeless powder centerfire inside 100 yards--go ahead and zero at 100 yards. That will put you less than an inch high at 50 yards. The only exceptions to this would be rifles in pistol calibers such as .357Mag or .44Mag; but even they will still be only 1 to 2 inches high at 50 yards with a 100 yard zero.
  5. 50 Shooter

    50 Shooter member

    Dec 24, 2002
    SoCal PRK
    The advice is good for hunting but some us prefer to shoot long range.

    2000 yard target.


    Same target, different outing but the picture tells a (2000 yard) tale.

  6. EShell

    EShell Member

    Nov 5, 2003
    Agreed. We normally have to struggle to get beyond 1,200, but I did shoot a .308 to 1,350 a few weekends back. All of the white steel plates in this pic were less than 1,100


    That said, of the 120+ deer I've taken, the ones beyond 200 yards number less than about 10, and I had to work at it to set up a "long" shot at them. I've probably killed the majority between 15 and 75 yards. The cover limits us in about half the state, the terrain limits us in the other half.
  7. goon

    goon Member

    Jan 20, 2003
    His advice to get close and make your shot count is really good. I worked that out for myself a long time ago - I'm not a real great marksman but I am sneaky as hell. I prefer to get within 50 yards or closer if at all possible.

    Technically, muzzle velocity and energy are related and you can't change one without affecting the other. If you lose muzzle velocity you lose energy. If you double muzzle velocity you quadruple the energy.
    But at 100 yards or even 200 you haven't lost enough energy to really worry about it yet. That is probably the point he was trying to make.
  8. Eric F

    Eric F Member

    Jul 23, 2007
    Here is another hunting tip from one of my many uncles. If you are going to shoot a doe go for a head shot if she goes down you got her if she runs you missed(his therory not exactly mine). This only works if its close to opening day if you are at the end of the season and your freezer is still empty I say go for the lung hit. As far as the zero in your area it might be a good thing to do 50 yards depends on the terrain. Personaly I zero at x and when the bullet is on the way up and then know the range when the bullet passes x again on the way down. For example my AR that I use to have was sighted at 25 yards which was also good for 175 yards. Rember that rifles vary so what works on one rifle might be slightly diffrent on the next.
  9. JesseL

    JesseL Member

    Aug 26, 2004
    Prescott, AZ
    Everything else sounds okay, but I gotta wonder how anyone can make sense of that statement.:scrutiny:
  10. .45Guy

    .45Guy Member

    Sep 6, 2005
    Or her snout's blown off. Seen a few like that! :mad:
  11. mpmarty

    mpmarty Member

    Jul 12, 2006
    So. Western Oregon
    Zero the rifle for the cartridge. Zeroing a 7mm Rem Mag at fifty yards is as stupid as zeroing a 44 mag carbine at 500. Also remember that muzzle energy and muzzle velocity are just that, the energy and velocity at the muzzle. Five feet from the muzzle or five hundred yards the numbers are continuously decreasing.
  12. cracked butt

    cracked butt Member

    Jan 3, 2003
    SE Wisconsin
    There has been more and more fascination with 'long range' hunting in the past few years. I've seen posters on other websites show their setups where they place a blind around a concrete bench, lazer off 1000 yards and practice shots to that point. before deer season, they start putting bait out at that spot before deer season, then shoot a deer as it eats from the bait pile during the deer season. To each their own I guess, but I find hunting much more rewarding if I can get closer to the deer rather than further away.
  13. dm1333

    dm1333 Member

    Dec 21, 2005

    No matter what the range the deer is at the muzzle velocity is going to be the same, but the closer the deer is the more kinetic energy the round will have when it hits the deer. I had to read through it a few times, basically let the deer get closer so your round hits harder.
  14. Geno

    Geno Member

    Jun 11, 2005
    cracked butt:

    Well said!!

    Sure, I can hit a deer at 1,000 yards...eventually, but I'm not sure how quick the kill would be. Too many variables to consider when it's game, versus a paper or steel target. Just saying I agree with you.

  15. blackhawk2000

    blackhawk2000 member

    Mar 25, 2003
    The zeroing of the rifle is largely dependent on what you are shooting. For example a 25 yd zero out an AR15 isn't as good as a 50 yd zero. If you zero at 50 yds you are either 2 1/2" high, or 2 1/2" low from the muzzle all the way out to 220 yds. Basically what this means is, if the target is in between you to 220 yds, aim center of the kill zone and you will either be right on, or +- 2 1/2". This is called point blank zero. It works for anything. Google it. Good stuff.
  16. theCZ

    theCZ Member

    Nov 3, 2003
    His advice is good, it pays off to get as close as possible before shooting. Where I happen to live, for most of my hunting, 200 yards is a close shot.
  17. Aguila Blanca

    Aguila Blanca Member

    May 5, 2004
    The statement is inherently wrong, because bullets lose velocity as they travel. That is the ONLY reason they lose energy down-range, and also the reason the trajectory is parabolic rather than linear.

    Muzzle velocity is called "muzzle" velocity because that's what it is -- a measure of the bullet velocity as it leaves the muzzle. 100 yards out, the bullet is traveling slower than when it leaves the muzzle. Maybe not much, but slower. 500 yards out, it's traveling a lot slower. "Energy" is essentially momentum -- it's a function of mass and velocity. Since a bullet doesn't appreciably shed mass in flight, the only way it can lose energy is to lose velocity.

    The old man had the right idea, but he used the wrong terminology. The muzzle velocity isn't wnat you measure at the point of impact.
  18. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator Emeritus

    Oct 22, 2007
    Central PA

    Maybe I'm missing something really obvious, but his statement seems a little odd: "Muzzle velocity will be the same at any distance."

    Muzzle velocity only exists at the MUZZLE! Not at "any distance." Bullets start slowing down as soon as they leave the muzzle. The ballistic coefficient of the specific bullet you're shooting can alter the rate that it slows down (by a bit, anyway) but no bullet that leaves your muzzle at 2500 fps, say, is still going 2500 fps at 100 yds. ***

    This is the largest factor in WHY the kinetic energy of the bullet is less at 100 yds. If it was still going 2500 fps then the energy would be the same as at the muzzle.

    Did I just miss his point or something?


    EDIT: Ahhh, White Eagle beat me to it!

    *** Okay, okay. So there's the Gyrojet...but aside from that! :rolleyes: :D
  19. MCgunner

    MCgunner Member

    Dec 3, 2005
    The end of the road between Sodom and Gomorrah Tex
    Get as close to the game as you can, the stalk, that is hunting.

    On the shooting side of it, I sight my rifles in for a maximum 3" point blank range. That means my .308 with 140 Barnes, max 3" PBR is 273 yards, is no more than 3" high or low from POA right out to 273 yards, no need for any holdover to that range. In fact, I have the trajectories taped to the top of the scope for my 2 loads. It hits about 2.5" high at 100, dead on somewhere around 220 IIRC, but I don't worry about it to 273 yards because I know that on a 12" vital zone of a deer's shoulder area, I'll hit it without sight correction. Now, I still try to get the closest shot possible. That's part of HUNTING. I am a hunter, but I can shoot if I need to at longer ranges.

    BTW, at 25, the shot is slightly low, at 50, it's no more than an inch high with the gun sighted for max point blank range. You will be on at 50 if you're sighted this way and still be able to take that 273 yard shot without hold over...well, with my .308. Every gun is different, some shoot flatter, some not so flat. Not only that, but loads are different.
  20. .38 Special

    .38 Special Member

    Sep 15, 2006
    My experience has been that a few people are capable of reliably taking game beyond 300 yards, and that a lot of people think they are.

    So I guess that you could say I'm all for a return to the concept of hunting.
  21. eldon519

    eldon519 Member

    Jul 21, 2005
    I think that's a wise man's way of saying that things aren't gonna get any better than a deer right in front of you. Good advice.
  22. lee n. field

    lee n. field Member

    Dec 29, 2002
    Another one of them physics questions.

    Muzzle velocity is the velocity at the muzzle. The deer isn't at the muzzle. Velocity drops with distance. Mass stays the same but velocity drops --> kinetic energy drops.
  23. Calhoun321

    Calhoun321 Member

    Jan 11, 2007
    Personally shooting deer at 300+ yards is just that - - shooting deer. It is not hunting IMHO.
  24. Funderb

    Funderb Member

    Oct 23, 2007
    Jacksonville, Bold new city of the south.
    And he is absolutely right!

    The old man is correct, muzzle velo. is exactly the same at all distances.
    That's what's great!
    Now you just have to worry about terminal velocity, and the rest of the terminal ballistics.

    Short range hunting is more fun. Nothing like sneaking up on a deer and clubbing it to death because your mosin is too long to shoot it.
    (A mosin also works as a spear or javelin in the primitive weapons part of the season)
  25. dmazur

    dmazur Member

    Apr 28, 2007
    Pacific NW
    Just about choked on my coffee on that one! I've read about folks claiming someone owes them a keyboard, etc. but until this one I never actually fell on the floor.

    I still think there should be some kind of warning symbol for dangerously funny stuff...
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