Don't think I over reacted. idiot reached for my gun.

Discussion in 'Strategies, Tactics, and Training' started by Trunk Monkey, Sep 2, 2013.

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  1. Trunk Monkey

    Trunk Monkey member

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    I walked into church Sunday, sat my wife down and went out to get a bulletin. The greeter knows me and knows I’m part of the church security team.

    First time I showed up for church security several months ago he walked up gave me a hug (huggy church) and dropped his hand down on my gun. I knocked his hand away; stepped back and told him very clearly “Do not ever do that again.”

    Well, Sunday he did it again but this time he waited till I was shaking his hand and lifted my shirt with his left hand. I jerked my hand back and in no uncertain terms told him “Do not ever put your hands on me like that again.”

    This time I think I got his attention because he got defensive and told me I was “too uptight.”

    This morning I wrote a 7 paragraph letter to the head of church security explaining exactly what happened, reminding him that this is the second time this has occurred and asking him to set the guy straight. I also made it explicitly clear that as far as I was concerned the only acceptable resolution to the situation was the guy respects my space and does not do that again. I’m waiting for a response.

    My ego is a little bruised because IMO the guy disrespected me but he’s an idiot, not a threat and I just can’t justify punching him in the nose because I know he isn’t actually trying to gain possession of my hand gun.

    Going forward I intend to avoid the guy like the plague and I intend to tell him straight up to BTFO if he ever tries to get in my bubble again.

    Since he is a church employee I really hope the church makes his error crystal clear but I need some non violent way to brake check this guy if he ever gets stupid like that again.

    PS This seems like an ST&T tactic to me but if it's not move it.
     
  2. allaroundhunter

    allaroundhunter Member

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    Well... Last time that someone tried to get to my gun they ended up flat on their back. Not something that I would do to a church greeter that I knew, however.

    Your best option is to avoid him and use another entry door (if possible), just in case it isn't clear to him that his actions won't be tolerated.
     
  3. Flfiremedic

    Flfiremedic Member

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    I think you showed great restraint. You might sit this individual down later and explain things to him. Next weapon he tries to touch my cost him a broken arm and nose...or a criminal record.
     
  4. Al Thompson

    Al Thompson Moderator Emeritus

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    Seriously, wonder if he's mentally "off". That's pretty bizarre behavior. :uhoh:
     
  5. USAF_Vet

    USAF_Vet Member

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    I think you did okay. Better a bruised ego than a violent recourse, especially since he wasn't really a threat, just an idiot. You made it clear it won't be tolerated, and informed his overseers at the church. Let them handle it unless/ until it happens again. Taking the guy to the floor might not be required, but some sort of action may. Perhaps if the church doesn't do anything about it, it might be time to find a new church.
     
  6. TrickyDick

    TrickyDick Member

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    Some people aren't the brightest crayons in the box. You handled it well, but I wouldn't let his stupidity interfere your worshipping. Maybe a talk outside afterwards will be necessary if the church doesn't do something. I would warn him and the church that someone could get hurt if he does it again.
     
  7. Torian

    Torian Member

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    Some seriously weird behavior. I think you showed restraint.
     
  8. OilyPablo

    OilyPablo Member

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    He's very lucky it's church and he probably did it because the situation is in church.
     
  9. limpingbear

    limpingbear Member

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    you showed a lot more restraint than I would have. I think I would have popped him one on the nose that second time. With you being on the security team for the church and this man being an employee, he should know better. definately tell the higher ups in the church.
     
  10. zxcvbob

    zxcvbob Member

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    You showed great restraint. I am a very nonviolent person, but that second time I would've probably tried to crush his right hand to make a point (it would just look like he was a wuss, unlike a punch in the nose)

    I'm left handed, so my grip isn't as strong with my right, but it's pretty strong and he was focused on his left hand and wouldn't be expecting it... You on the other hand (no pun intended) are right handed.
     
  11. Trunk Monkey

    Trunk Monkey member

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    .

    If you saw the way he dressed you wouldn't wonder
     
  12. Eldraque

    Eldraque Member

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    Sounds like you did the right thing
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2013
  13. JVaughn

    JVaughn Member

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    That's one greeter that would never shake my hand again. Incidentally, would your capacity as "church security" be diminished in any way if no one but you knew? Why have a list?
     
  14. Telekinesis

    Telekinesis Member

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    I think you were very restrained in your response. I'm going to make a few assumptions based on the fact that you were in church and say you were concealing with a tucked shirt (feel free to correct me if that's wrong) but anyone who starts digging through my clothing to get to my pistol is very quickly moving from an idiot to a threatening idiot. I could see a hug and his arm accidentally sweeping across the gun as he was moving away after the hug, but pulling up your shirt is not exactly an accidental thing.

    I do feel that you made the right decision not to hit him considering that you were in church and this was a church employee, but if he continues to reach for your weapon even after you and his employer have been very clear that he is not to do that, I would consider using some physical force. I would probably consider him lucky that he didn't do that to a cop. Even an off duty cop would probably give him a bloody nose and a few minutes to reflect on his transgressions while wearing a set of handcuffs.
     
  15. tomrkba

    tomrkba Member

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    Deciding how far to go can be a difficult one when you have less than one second to do it. I think you used the minimum amount of force combined with a verbal warning in a way that makes it clear he crossed a line. I am not certain if more force is justified if he does it again. My thought is that the law considers only the immediate situation for justified use of force. I would consult an attorney since there is the opportunity for a gun grab. The mitigating circumstance may be the two previous attempts and subsequent warnings. I would make sure I'm very, very, very clear on the law before doing anything beyond verbal and light touch.

    That said, why are you accepting hugs from men not related to you? I never allow that and step back or to the side. You can preempt this behavior by extending your hand to shake his hand and tie up his other hand with your support one. A small sidestep to his outside often assists in your "hug dodge".

    You could also make like you're fooling around with your hair as his support hand comes in and lightly block with the forearm. The final, but brief, position is you're grabbing the back of your head with your hand and your elbow is pointed forward. This is a half version of the generic head protection block I learned in SouthNarc's ECQC class. Of course, you do this only briefly like you were grooming and combine it with a "Sorry!" and a sidestep to the outside.

    If you're stuck with the "hug attack" and cannot dodge because Little Old Ms. Smith is next to you, give your wife The Look. She'll bring it up with his wife and they'll work it out. If not, get the popcorn out :)

    ** fun mode **

    If a male does that by coming up behind you, I expect you to go full out with violence if you feel anything that could be "wood".

    Of course, you can throw up the fence, move 90 degrees and loudly tell him to keep his distance. I like a 'half command voice' for the first warning and full command voice with un-Christian language the second time. The message will be clearly received as hostile. This doesn't look good and will irritate your wife unless your wife is Italian. Then he better watch out because she'll tear into him like a badger! Stiletto knives are banned in many states for this very reason ;)

    ** end fun mode **
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2013
  16. OilyPablo

    OilyPablo Member

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    I was wondering the same thing.
     
  17. beatledog7

    beatledog7 Member

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    How do you know your church doesn't have a security team?
     
  18. OilyPablo

    OilyPablo Member

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    We are a relatively small church. I often volunteer and am involved. I guess the security thing is not surprising so armed security shouldn't be either these days. Didn't want this to turn in the crux of the conversation, Mr. Reacher did unacceptable behavior.
     
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  19. BWB

    BWB Member

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    Couple of small comments, as I think you have handled this well given the surprise factor, the "unthreatening" setting, and that you know him. You now know him to be erratic to some unknown degree. I would never engage him in a handshake or anything close to it again. You are handing him your weapon if you do.
    To another poster who will not accept hugs from unrelated males: I hug and am hugged often by my Special Forces (Airborne) surrogate sons, none of whom is related to me by anything but brotherhood. They have my back and my loyalty, and if I will do anything for them, why the hell wouldn't I man hug them?
     
  20. Officers'Wife

    Officers'Wife Member

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  21. Trunk Monkey

    Trunk Monkey member

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    I’m pretty good at writing a business letter so I can’t imagine the guy’s supervisor not at least telling him to lay off me.
    Paragraph 1 was Hey, something happened and I am not happy.
    Paragraph 2 was this is what happened.
    Paragraph 3 was a reminder that I’ve asked for your help on this issue before.
    Paragraph 4 was a restatement of why the behavior was unacceptable especially for a representative of their church.
    Paragraph 5 was apparently the guy doesn’t think me being upset is a big deal so I want you to get involved.
    Paragraph 6 was what I intend to do (avoid the guy) but I want you to understand that only this outcome (the guy leaves me alone) is acceptable to me.
    And Paragraph 7 was I know you’ll do the right thing, thanks for helping me out.
    My concern had I just popped the guy is that I really think the church staff would have said I was overreacting to his “playfulness”. Now if something happens I’m on record as telling the church there’s a problem and that I take the guy’s actions very seriously
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2013
  22. Trunk Monkey

    Trunk Monkey member

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    I see your response as more spiritual than tactical and will respond in that vein. Being tempted to hit someone but controlling the urge isn’t a sin. If I had deliberately hid behind the situation (‘But officer I really thought he was trying to grab my gun and that’s why I broke his wrist.”) There’s no doubt in my mind that I would be sinning but that didn’t happen. I wanted to drop the guy (how would you respond if someone violated your personal space to that degree?) but I didn’t So you have no basis to throw stones.
     
  23. Trunk Monkey

    Trunk Monkey member

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    @ Telekinesis I was wearing an untucked shirt over the gun he lifted the tail of the shirt. The first time he didn’t “brush” my gun he put his hand flat on it.

    And as stated above he's used up his last non violent response
     
  24. Officers'Wife

    Officers'Wife Member

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    Last edited: Sep 2, 2013
  25. xxjumbojimboxx

    xxjumbojimboxx Member

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    He may not be intentionally trying to take your gun, but he is intentionally trying to touch/ and or expose it. I would avoid him at this point, you know, walk away when he approaches, that sort of thing. If he's that infatuated with your gun who's to say he wont try to take it next time. The guy sounds like a creep as is.. I don't do much man hugging... but if I do my hand don't drift down to the hips... That alone, gun or not, is enough to get a shove from me... As I would truly consider it harassment... He's been warned twice. What if the dude pulled the trigger by accident? Albeit very unlikely... it could happen.
     
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