Don't think I over reacted. idiot reached for my gun.

Discussion in 'Strategies, Tactics, and Training' started by Trunk Monkey, Sep 2, 2013.

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  1. tomrkba

    tomrkba Member

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    beatledog7,

    You are never going to get a clear answer on a gun forum. Socially, his behavior absolutely should not be tolerated. I believe that what you have said so far indicates that you do not know the intentions of this individual at any given time. His actions could be benign or malevalent in the future and any further contact should be construed as a gun grab attempt. In some states, this is a murder in progress and lethal force may be justified. Your response should be clear and follow the law.

    Contact your attorney and determine what the law says about his actions. I would think that this guy's actions would constitute some sort of misdemeanor crime. I would have the attorney write a letter to the church (and the contracting company he works for if the church uses one) explaining the legal liability to them and this guy. Furthermore, it should outline the physical acts you may legally take against this person should he deliberately place his hand on your holstered firearm again. If your attorney believes there is probable cause for a criminal complaint, then you should press charges. The time to stop this nonsense is now, not after it occurs again.


    ***

    You could always switch to SmartCarry ;)
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2013
  2. beatledog7

    beatledog7 Member

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    You missed my point entirely. Calling the person an idiot is completely unrelated to knowing his intent or not knowing it. It's also unrelated to his intent being benign or malicious.

    It's just name calling, and it serves no purpose.
     
  3. Mainsail

    Mainsail Member

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    Find a Bible believing church with people who are looking for a relationship with their Creator through Jesus.

    If your carry is disruptive to the above, then you may not be acting out of love, and the burden of change is on you. If you prefer not to be unarmed (and I don't myself) then carry in such a way that your stumbling brother won't notice it or be able to grab it. Be part of the solution.

    If you genuinely don't care; go ahead and make a big stink about it.
     
  4. RetiredUSNChief

    RetiredUSNChief Member

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    Ah, the journey to wisdom starts with a single question!

    (Probably a quote from somebody, but if not I hereby claim it as my own!)

    Seriously, a questioning attitude like this is important, because this is how you train yourself for future encounters.

    Unfortunately, there is no single "correct" answer which will cover all circumstances. So you'll have to place yourself in the role of performing "thought experiments" wherein you envision yourself in a variety of circumstances where something similar happens. Then you role-play it out in your mind as to how you will handle it and what actions/words you will use.

    Perhaps you can even role-play some scenarios with a friend, as well.

    The goal should be not only how to avoid, but how to diffuse the situation.


    As to why this guy is doing this, there are any number of reasons and you may never know any of them with any degree of certainty. However, the goal is to stop the behavior and it's not always necessary to understand his motivations to accomplish this.

    If any future occurrences happen, then I'd recommend following up through official channels, just like you are doing now. Perhaps add a personal meeting with the church administration along with a letter, wherein you discuss face-to-face how to deal with this.
     
  5. Speedo66

    Speedo66 Member

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    Before I retired, "a defendant". ;>)
     
  6. Trunk Monkey

    Trunk Monkey member

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    I'm sorry but no, the OP isn't. Reaching for someone's gun one time isn't bright.

    Doing it the second time after being told that it is a violation of boundaries is pretty stupid
     
  7. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator Emeritus

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    A little social judo might work. Control the interaction physically yourself:

    1) See him coming.
    2) Anticipate the action.
    3) Grab the outstretched hand and pump it vigorously in a grand handshake. (Even the left hand. Both hands, if necessary.) Don't let go of his hands until your greeting and any brief communication is complete.
    4) Finish the shake and disengage with a slight, gentle push off that re-establishes space between you.
    5) Back two steps, turn, and leave.

    HE may take it as awkward and domineering. But no one else would see it that way and he already knows the score between you two.

    If he persists in trying to get in his hug or whatever after your push-off, a firm hand to the chest, palm out (not a strike, just a motion to block), look him in the eye and say "No."
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2013
  8. Trunk Monkey

    Trunk Monkey member

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    I did that and I’m in that church now



    My carry is condoned by the church to the point that they’ve asked me to do so as their agent while doing church security. Being a Christian does not obligate me to accept bullying behavior form other Christians.


    I don’t see asking the head of security to get involved as “making a big stink” I think some of the violent responses that have been suggested here or getting an attorney involved would be “raising a big stink” I am positive that if the church received a letter from my attorney their next move would be to simply ask me to leave the church. This guy’s behavior isn’t acceptable by any definition of the term.

    What he’s doing violates my space and my right to decide who does or doesn’t know I carry a firearm it also compromises the security of the church and sooner or later he’s going to do it to one of the security guys who is an off duty cop and find himself on the floor in handcuffs. If I can get the church to thoroughly explain the error of his ways now I may be saving him and them trouble down the road
     
  9. another pake

    another pake Member

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    There are so many details of this scenario which I would like to comment on, but I believe that I will limit my response to just a few.

    First of all I think that in as much we know from the retelling of the incidents we all agree that the "greeter's" actions were improper at the least and potentially dangerous or even life threatening at the worst.

    My question though is this. How has your training or preparation in this position within this organization expected you to respond? These are real world, day to day possibilities in the security field.

    The issue that I am very concerned about in these kinds of situations is that they are fraught with the possibility of disaster. I will generalize. You extrapolate to this situation or any other similar one.

    Organizations, particularly churches but it could be any others and especially those which utilize volunteers to fill needed positions, frequently fail to properly train or monitor or even identify expected behavior for those filling positions. Contrast that with the working world where expectations are defined, trained for, reviewed and performance evaluated. You wouldn't expect a member of a security detail for a businessman, entertainer or politician stating something like, "I've got to figure out how to keep people from invading my bubble." Please understand that I am not trying to criticize the OP, but rather identify what I see as a real accident waiting to happen.

    I am a CC permit holder myself, but am in no way qualified to be a member of anyone's security detail, especially one responsible for the safety of dozens or possibly hundreds of congregants.

    What I do remember from my time in the military, and have tried to practice is;

    You train and you train and you practice and you train and then you practice some more. Then, if and when something happens which requires a response...

    You Rely On Your Training.

    Respectfully

    pake
     
  10. Trunk Monkey

    Trunk Monkey member

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    Thanks for giving me a spring board for addressing something my wife and I discussed last night.

    I’m not sure if my thinking is correct but I feel that this guy displays an appalling lack of maturity and extremely poor impulse control. His past behavior has convinced me that no matter what the church tells him there will come a time that he’ll try it again and because of that my intent that he never touches my person in any way for any reason ever again.
     
  11. Trunk Monkey

    Trunk Monkey member

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    I see what you are saying but I think you are overlooking the fact that as a security volunteer I have absolutely no authority I can tell they guy not to touch me but short of violence I can’t enforce it and I really believe that the church would see a violent response as inappropriate.

    At work I have authority to act on the client’s behalf and if I had cause to enforce my personal space I’d already have a can of Fox Labs in my hand before I even asked you not to put your hands on me and if you continued to invade my space after that I’d use it.

    I can’t do that in church.
     
  12. zxcvbob

    zxcvbob Member

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    What is he, the Youth Minister? (serious question) What other kind of poor judgement and lack of impulse control might he have?
     
  13. another pake

    another pake Member

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    I actually don't believe that I am overlooking a volunteer's lack of authority. In fact that was the basis for my concern. Perhaps I stated it poorly. In my opinion a volunteer security staff person, especially an armed one, has no place deciding on his own what response is appropriate. You are making my point and identifying the need for greater and more specific training for all of the security volunteers. I assume the organist has to abide by a selected song list or style of play?
     
  14. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator Emeritus

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    Oh, absolutely agreed. However, an effective physical distancing move and/or block might be noticeable to a lot of other people, especially as this fool plays the wounded or surprised innocent and embarasses you in front of the other parishioners. You surely don't want to explain to all watching what he's really upset about. That's why I suggested a plan for forcibly redirecting his approach -- for those times he does come in for the grab -- that looks to everyone else like you're just bestest of buddies.

    This is a social crisis situation for you. No matter how right you may be to be alarmed and to stop his actions, because of the rather awkward and unnatural social mores of church settings you just cannot be seen reacting in a clear, decisive manner. If this fool is offended, or just really playful, he could quite easily ruin you in the eyes of the rest of the congregation by pushing you into a response that makes you look bad (i.e. -- you ignore or "snub" him), gets you asked to leave (i.e. -- you're loud and direct with him), or as others have suggested, gets you facing charges for assault (physical violence of some sort).

    WHEN he gets close, you're going to have to take command of the situation.
     
  15. j1

    j1 Member

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    He needs serious counseling plus a formal warning by the church officials. Next comes a written complaint to the PD. next comes physical separation of the two of you.

    This is not funny or acceptrable behavior.
     
  16. bdickens

    bdickens Member

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    What a load of manure.

    1) The OP has and absolute right to determine for himself who will or will not touch him and where.

    2) The OP is a member of a security team in the employ of, acting on the behalf of and armed under the auspices of the business in question.

    3) Take the word "church" and all of its associated emotional baggage away. Replace it with WalMart. WalMart has greeters and security guards. What you have here is the WalMart greeter grabbing for the security guard's gun. After already being told not to.

    The OP acted with considerable restraint. If he had been a cop, Mr. Grabby, the idiot in question would be now referred to as either "the deceased" or "the suspect now in custody."
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2013
  17. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator Emeritus

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    Byron has a great point, actually.

    A LOT of emotional weight is being thrown into this because it's church and as I alluded to before, we tend to imagine that church, the place, and church, the people are somehow different from every other place we might go or people we might run into. ("...awkward and unnatural social mores...")

    If I remember the theology at all well, that's completely false. Not to get us sidetracked into religion, but it fits well with my point. You should absolutely NOT behave differently because you're standing in a church building interacting with a church patron than you would if you were anywhere else talking to anyone else.

    If you do, you're making both tactical mistakes and probably some that your minister might feel you should consider even more serious.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2013
  18. Trunk Monkey

    Trunk Monkey member

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    Disclaimer

    I don’t know that this is relevant to the strategies portion of this discussion but in the interest of full disclosure I am still mad about this because I feel that if I set a boundary with you I have the right to expect you to respect that. So if my responses seem to have some bite to them that’s why.

    Also someone asked if he was the youth pastor and the answer is no. He is and employee of the church but not part of the Pastoral staff on any level.
     
  19. Deer_Freak

    Deer_Freak Member.

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    I would very clearly tell him to stay away from you and yours. The church is a place of worship, not a place to get away with stuff that would get him punched and/or arrested elsewhere.
     
  20. another pake

    another pake Member

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    Once again and respectfully so,

    You stated you were acting as the church's "agent". Have they left you alone to figure this out? As their agent your actions become their responsibility. Will their insurances cover your actions on their behalf should an incident of any kind occurs?

    Please don't respond in your anger. These kinds of statements/scenarios are the very reason so many non gun toting members of the public feel the way they do about us. A non threatening, harmless, (idiot??) who wears funny clothes does something out of line and some body pops him.

    Please deal with this through proper chains of command and not on internet forums. It sounds like you are trying to do that through your letter. If the procedure can't be resolved this way please remove yourself from the security team.

    pake
     
  21. krupparms

    krupparms Member

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    A small shock from a hand buzzer might work. They can be had at gag & joke store's &are leagle. That can be passed off as a joke! J.A.T.! Check that it is leagle first! Also an offensive oder coming from him after he spoke with you might give him a hint! Someone trying to touch or expose your firearm is totally unacceptable & it would seem you have used restraint & have done the right thing! If you get no help from the Rev. & Elders, then it is time to get proactive about things! JMO.
     
  22. Mainsail

    Mainsail Member

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    I wasn’t addressing whether the church cordoned your carry, it’s irrelevant. I was addressing its disruptiveness. If you have to lay this guy out it will certainly be disruptive, no? I agree with you that you should carry, I and most others do.

    Maybe the disconnect here is how I interpret your story. I’m seeing a guy who may be a little slow, not intentionally hostile to you. If he’s slow witted, then you should consider acting out of compassion, not hostility. If he’s doing it because he’s so anti-gun that he’s trying to make a political statement, then you need to contact the appropriate authorities. If not, then he obviously doesn’t understand firearms and the danger he’s placing you, him, and everyone else in by doing what he’s doing. I don’t see anywhere where you took him aside and explained why he shouldn’t do what he did, only that you reacted angrily….twice. That didn’t work, try something else.

    That isn’t appropriate. It is a church- it is not a walmart. We go to church to (1) praise and thank our God for being mindful of us and providing us a way (Christ) of salvation, (2) to learn more about Him, (3) to fellowship with other believers which can strengthen us, etc. Anything that detracts from those purposes has no place.

    I’m not clear on what you mean by ‘emotional baggage’ and its association with church.

    I recognize that some people believe that attending church gets them some sort of credit, or that holding a position in a church (security for example) gives them some sort of higher standing, but those are false doctrines and should be avoided.

    I see a communication issue here between the OP and Mr. Grabby. Either the OP is too hostile or Mr. Grabby is too slow witted, but something needs to be done to promote effective communication. That something needs to be done in the light of Christian love, not secular beat-down or hostility.
     
  23. CharlieDeltaJuliet

    CharlieDeltaJuliet Member

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    You don't even know how my Labor Day was. Long story short a cousin was running his mouth reach for my 9mm and got hurt. Police were called and they told me I can press charges for assault. He had mine halfway out of my IWB holster. He then said I was done, I was a deadman... So it is a messy time...lol
     
  24. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator Emeritus

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    Mainsail, in relation to this:
    I don't know that "emotional baggage" is the gentlest way to put it, but folks do tend to do a great "Sunday show" of who/what they are and how they act toward others when in their Sunday duds. :) From what I recall of teachings (both tactical and spiritual) that's a bad trap to be in.

    I had said:
    If you can't figure out how to socially handle this guy in church, what good-n-Christian way are you going to deal with him (or his like) elsewhere? And why would it be ok for the two to be different?

    Perhaps that's just something better left contemplated than discussed here openly, lest we get into religious matters, but it is an important point -- at least from a tactical standpoint.
     
  25. BullfrogKen

    BullfrogKen Moderator Emeritus

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    I'm with Lost Sheep and another pake on this one.

    You chose to volunteer to work church security. So in that capacity, volunteer or not, you're working. You're not there for just you anymore; you're there to serve others so they can enjoy the morning carefree, not you, because you're working. If you can't find some non-violent, non-threatening way to communicate standards for acceptable behavior to someone you work with in this church, you need to step down from that team and go learn those skills.


    The overwhelming part of a security team's job has nothing to do with your gun, but rather your social skills, and how to use them to manage people and their behavior.

    If you cannot conjure some images in your head of how to deal with this beyond punching the guy in the nose, using chemical sprays, or threatening force as a default response you're as much a part of the problem as the problem itself.

    How do you think a media or pop culture idol's security staff deals with overly-enthusiastic fans? They don't lay open some kid's nose, or pepper spray someone, or issue threats. The minute they did they'd be off the team, because people like Beyonce and Miley Syrus don't want to see their fans getting manhandled, roughed up and having that making headlines.


    What you're involved in is no different. You need to learn some social skills to deal with the public, and that includes your church greeter. If you can't deal with him, let's just say it's not going to get any better with the rest of "the public".


    Futhermore, what another pake spoke about regarding the church's stance is really important. You should pay attention here. One day you might find yourself in a scenario where you did something that the church won't back you on. Say . . . some new member estranged from her husband taking the kids to church . . . the upset Dad finds out where, comes in and causes a scene. You can't just pull your gun out, or otherwise threaten force on this guy. You'll have to use your social skills to diffuse that. And you need to work out with the church how you handle such things ahead of time.



    You really think one of your off-duty officers on the team is going to prone the guy out and arrest him in the middle of a service? Really?


    Tell you what. You say you have an off-duty officer there? Why don't you do this:

    • Have that meeting with your church team about your greeter's inappropriate behavior. What he did was no less inappropriate than lifting up the blanket covering a newborn's head as he suckles off his mother's breast to take a peek. Explore a way for him to learn boundaries, or find something else to do in the morning.
    • Have a conversation with this Officer in your church about ways you can confidently establish your presence without using force, threats of force, or otherwise acting the way you are right now. Ask yourself why he toys with you, and not him. Ask yourself how it is people have established boundaries with you in the past, and how that happened without amping up the situation. While you're at it, role-play some scenarios for a few months with him and learn those social skills.
     
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