Don't think I over reacted. idiot reached for my gun.

Discussion in 'Strategies, Tactics, and Training' started by Trunk Monkey, Sep 2, 2013.

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  1. bdickens

    bdickens Member

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    It is absolutely appropriate. Do we condone, do we turn a blind eye to behavior by employees - or patrons for that matter - of a business that is not only inappropriate, but possibly criminal as well, simply because that business happens to have a Calvary cross on top of the roof?

    Do what I suggested and replace "Church" with "WalMart" and ask yourself if Mr. Grabby's actions are appropriate and if he would not be rightly arrested. Or shot.

    People loose their heads about churches and schools. That's what is meant by the "emotional baggage" surrounding them. They think that somehow there is some kind of magic force field around them that is supposed to insulate them from violence and that allowing certain lawful activities within their confines - i.e, carrying handguns - will turn normal people into bloodthirsty psychopaths as soon as they cross an imaginary border. That is why many states have stupid laws against law-abiding citizens carrying their lawfully owned and carried guns in them.

    A discreetly armed security guard is not disruptive. Some obviously not-right-in-the-head employee (greeter) grabbing for the security guard's gun is what is disruptive. Not to mention criminal. It isn't a matter of anyone having a higher standing. It is a matter of safety. "Christian Love" notwithstanding, Mr. Grabby is a danger to himself and to everyone around him.
     
  2. Trunk Monkey

    Trunk Monkey member

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    I agree that the fact that it happened in church does add some weird Juju but even if it had happened at work there would be different levels of response indicated.

    I’m walking around on a site at work and some complete stranger or even client employee makes a grab for my gun then I’m sure that I’d be deemed justified if I responded at whatever level of force necessary to retain control of my weapon.

    If I’m in the company office getting a new uniform shirt and the trainer walks by and tugs on my gun and I drop her, not so much.

    Remember I’m not the only person I have to justify my actions to.

    Having said that, this is where I’m at with the situation, I am going to take no further action until I hear from the head of security.

    If I haven’t heard from him by Sunday I will seek him out and follow up with him then.

    In the mean time I intend to avoid “Chucky” (Not his real name BTW) if that isn’t possible I will very clearly state the following expectations:

    I do not want you to put your hands on my person

    I do not want you to reach for or otherwise attempt to put your hands on my gun or attempt to expose it.

    Because I don’t trust you not to do these things I do not wish to shake hands with you.

    I will post and up date
     
  3. Trunk Monkey

    Trunk Monkey member

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    I’m not sure how I gave this impression but “Chucky” is not feeble minded he is aware of the difference between right and wrong. He is (self evidently) not aware of the difference between appropriate and in appropriate behaviors.

    That said, absolutely no action on my part short of “hey Chucky do you want to touch my gun?” would have made it appropriate for him to do so under any circumstance.
    Like it or not there are people in this world who have no sense of boundaries they feel that they can do as they please because they’re playing and if their behavior makes you mad that just adds to the fun.

    Many times you don’t get it through their heads that “no this isn’t OK” until they pay a consequence (“a consequence" being anything from becoming a social pariah to death).

    There is no action on my part that makes it my fault for you to violate my personal space the only issue is how I appropriately deal with it. Which is why I started this thread.

    Now, maybe I didn’t set appropriate boundaries with him the first time but then again, I shouldn’t have had to.

    All the “verbal judo” in the world isn’t going to stop someone who places no value on your opinion especially not a bully.
     
  4. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator Emeritus

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    That sounds like a great plan. Let us know how it all goes. Lots of valueable discussion points here for folks who carry -- especially those who've not been in this kind of situation before.
     
  5. bdickens

    bdickens Member

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    I forgot to add:

    We're not talking about "Mr Touchy-Feely" wanting to hug someone who would rather not be hugged. We're talking about someone trying to get his hands on someone else's gun.
     
  6. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator Emeritus

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    Well... sort of.

    We're also not talking -- necessarily, or in the OP's opinion anyway -- about someone who wants to move the gun, dislodge the gun, remove it from the holster, get control of it, point it at anyone, or shoot anyone with it.

    So it isn't quite some random gun grab for who-knows-what nefarious purpose. It's a move to be playful, overly familiar, or perhaps to embarrass. Needs the right response.
     
  7. BullfrogKen

    BullfrogKen Moderator Emeritus

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    You don't know that. You think that's the case, but you don't know that for sure.

    And how is church different than Wal-mart?

    Guess you don't go to church much. In some churches the culture there encourages and promotes men hugging other men as not only socially acceptable, but synonymous to a handshake. That's not true at my local Wal-mart, where I'm shopping among strangers, and the greeter shaking my hand would be just as inappropriate as a hug from one.

    Don't ignore the social norms of someone's church in this conversation.


    What is unacceptible is this fellow acting the way he is, even in church where people are supposed to be friendly with each other, and not over-bearing. Or a nosy lookie-loo.

    Well it seems you do have to.

    And he's a bully now? Your church has a somewhat goofy person, who's now a bully, as their greeter? Come on, he's really that bad? Because bullies tend to act that way to everyone. How does the rest of the congregation feel about him?


    You said more there than you probably realize. Consequences? How about the consequence being something as simple as, if you don't respect my desire for personal space, we can't fellowship together? I can't shake your hand, or speak with you, or spend any time around you. Why does it have to go straight to talk of church-wide shunning and death?

    Talk about over-reaction. Yeah, I'm seeing a lot of it here in this conversation.


    As far as this fellow doing it because he knows it gets a rise out of you. Yup, that's on you. You let him get a rise out of you by letting him know it makes you extremely uncomfortable when you slapped his hand away and barked at him the first time.

    If you let some goofy bastard - church greeter or not - put you off balance, some people like that little bit of power you just gave them and continue playing with it.

    If you really think it's a gun grab attempt, you're going to have a tough time articulating to a detective why you used force on him the third time he did it, months later, rather than removed yourself from the environment completely after the first attempt.

    But it's really not, and you know it. Your opening post -

    My ego is a little bruised because IMO the guy disrespected me but he’s an idiot, not a threat and I just can’t justify punching him in the nose because I know he isn’t actually trying to gain possession of my hand gun.​


    He's playing a game, toying with you, because you allow yourself to be toyed with. A calm, confident, quietly-spoken, self-assured statement has a lot more power than slapping hands, jumping back, and barking orders. As pointed out earlier, it's not what you say, it's all in the way you say it.


    Mind if I ask, how old are you?
     
  8. Deer_Freak

    Deer_Freak Member.

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    It's plain and simple, the bible says we have to forgive those who trespass against us. Those are words of wisdom. Once we have forgiven those who have trespassed against us we can move on with our life without doing something violent or crazy.

    But that doesn't mean we have to allow them to bother us again. We can stop them from getting into position to bother us without guilt. Even if that means getting them in hot water with the church patrons.
     
  9. jimmyraythomason

    jimmyraythomason Member

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    This is acceptable and VERY common in,not only my church,but every church I've been to in my 60 years of attendance.
     
  10. Shawn Dodson

    Shawn Dodson Member

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    What laws do you have in your state against Unlawful Touching? Assault? Battery? Educate yourself in these state laws and if it happens again call police and file a complaint. The intentionally offensive manner in which he physically touched you may be criminal act. You might inform him that you will elevate it to the next level (police intervention) if it ever happens again - and then he can explain his actions to police.
     
  11. Trunk Monkey

    Trunk Monkey member

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    I would be OK with the MODs locking this until I can give you an update but I'll leave it up to you
     
  12. zxcvbob

    zxcvbob Member

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    How about put him on the defensive [when he makes his move] by saying just loudly enough to be overheard by several bystanders, "Stop grabbing my ass, you pervert!" Or something like that.

    [​IMG]

    BTW, did you copy the pastor and/or church elders on your note, or just the head of security? Does the head of security have any actual authority over the staff?
     
  13. Trunk Monkey

    Trunk Monkey member

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    I’ll go ahead and answer the last question first, I’m 48 and FWIW I think Mr. Touchy-Feely is about my age or maybe a little older.

    If you really think it's a gun grab attempt, you're going to have a tough time articulating to a detective why you used force on him the third time he did it, months later, rather than removed yourself from the environment completely after the first attempt.

    But it's really not, and you know it. Your opening post -
    My ego is a little bruised because IMO the guy disrespected me but he’s an idiot, not a threat and I just can’t justify punching him in the nose because I know he isn’t actually trying to gain possession of my hand gun
    .

    I thought I made it clear from my first post that my response was in a large part predicated on the fact that I was certain that this was not an actual attempt to steal my gun. I don't think I've ever varried from that

    Well it seems you do have to.

    As correct as it appears that you are I still maintain that I shouldn’t have to tell a middle aged man that it’s not OK to grab someone’s gun in play

    And he's a bully now? Your church has a somewhat goofy person, who's now a bully, as their greeter? Come on, he's really that bad? Because bullies tend to act that way to everyone. How does the rest of the congregation feel about him?

    What else would you call him? To me there’s a pattern of behavior here he keeps going after my gun why is that ok?

    As far as this fellow doing it because he knows it gets a rise out of you. Yup, that's on you. You let him get a rise out of you by letting him know it makes you extremely uncomfortable when you slapped his hand away and barked at him the first time.

    If you let some goofy bastard - church greeter or not - put you off balance, some people like that little bit of power you just gave them and continue playing with it.


    Again how is this not bullying behavior

    He's playing a game, toying with you, because you allow yourself to be toyed with. A calm, confident, quietly-spoken, self-assured statement has a lot more power than slapping hands, jumping back, and barking orders. As pointed out earlier, it's not what you say, it's all in the way you say it.

    And when I quietly and self assuredly tell him to back off and he doesn’t then what?

    Whether you like it or not I get to have boundaries and I get to expect that they be respected and if they aren’t I get to take action to ensure that they are. I shouldn’t have to tell “you” not to put your hands on me more than one time. Really I shouldn’t have to tell you at all
     
  14. Trunk Monkey

    Trunk Monkey member

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    Head of Security and Security trainer. Head of security is a Pastor who may not have hire and fire authority but I am certain has back off of Trunk Monkey authority
     
  15. 9mmepiphany

    9mmepiphany Moderator Staff Member

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    I think it was because you called him an idiot

    That is a huge assumption on your part...but it is something that is learned from experience dealing with people. It would be one thing if you were in a formal uniform, but it would be a grave tactical error to take it for granted.

    I'd beg to differ. I agree with BullfrogKen that your reaction at the first encounter opened the door rather than closed it for the second incident...which also explains his reaction to you the second time.

    It might be a very good idea to speak to the other member of the team, specifically the LEO, for how they have handled the situation. If they have never had this kind of encounter with him, it is obviously something different about how you are behaving that is causing him to treat you differently.
     
  16. Trunk Monkey

    Trunk Monkey member

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    OK I'll accept this

    I addressed the issue with the rest of the team immediately after it happened none of them seemed the slight bit surprised that he had done this in fact the most common response was " oh that's just Chucky" which may be part of the problem if they all just allow the behavior
     
  17. BullfrogKen

    BullfrogKen Moderator Emeritus

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    If you agree this isn't an attempt to gain control of your gun, but some fellow just toying with you, why on earth are you talking about popping the guy in the nose, throttling him, or any sort of physical response at all? Your thoughts and anger aren't appropriate for a man already halfway through his life as a proper response.


    Bullying? No, I'm not sure it goes that far. Is there evidence he bullies anyone else, or just you? I really don't think a congregation would stand for a bully as the church greeter.

    I don't see where you used that option. Calm and self-assured is viewed as powerful. Amped up and uncomfortable is interpretted as weak. I've had plenty of opportunities in life to communicate to someone what they're doing was unacceptable, and they stopped. And I didn't have to go all Steven Seagal to do it.


    This - and he doesn’t, then what - is one reason why.


    Harsh words, I know. But you chose to carry a gun, so you don't get the right to be angry while you have it. And you chose to volunteer for this security team. Not only must you forego anger, you must perform the duty with discretion and tact.

    I think you glossed over what I said about a gun and this volunteer duty you're performing. Personally, I'd be very concerned about someone who felt that a gun on their person was the asset they brought for the security detail to my social gathering, whether it be church or a motorcyle club meeting.

    In such a role your interpersonal skills are the asset, not your gun.


    I'd encourage you to listen to the advice from another pake, and really flesh out what your duty here is with the church.
    And I'd encourage you to go have some conversations with that Peace Officer on your team, and the church leadership if you're going to continue performing it.
     
  18. 9mmepiphany

    9mmepiphany Moderator Staff Member

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    That would be one way to interpret it. The other is that they weren't seeing/having a problem deflecting his attention.

    If you are the only member of the team that is having a problem with his behavior, you have two choices:

    1. Quit the team as you aren't fitting in with their accepted culture.

    2. Take Chucky aside and professional...calmly and in a non-threatening manner...tell him that his behavior makes you uncomfortable and you are requesting that he treat you differently from how he treats the other team members.

    Option 2 would be fair warning and put him on proper notice. You would then have unquestioned standing to ask for adverse action against him if he continues...I don't think you have that now. You would if he was a stranger, but the dynamic changes as you seem to be part of a community/culture where physical contact is accepted as the norm
     
  19. Trunk Monkey

    Trunk Monkey member

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    I'd encourage you to listen to the advice from another pake, and really flesh out what your duty here is with the church.
    And I'd encourage you to go have some conversations with that Peace Officer on your team, and the church leadership if you're going to continue performing it.


    I intend to
     
  20. another pake

    another pake Member

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    Deleted
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2013
  21. Officers'Wife

    Officers'Wife Member

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    Agreed needs to be repeated.
     
  22. desidog

    desidog Member

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    Since we're on page 4, I'll just say it: Take the guy to the range!

    My take from this, which may be completely off since it is based on the OP's perspective entirely, is that you've got a guy who knows very little about guns and gun-handling, and is interested. Sure, he may be an idiot who doesn't know any better, but the actions described, coupled with
    That being said, if anyone held my strong hand and went for my gun, they'd be getting my weak hand.... good restraint!
     
  23. bdickens

    bdickens Member

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    I'm well aware of the social norms of many churches. Trying to lift someone's shirt and put your hands on his gun are not among them.

    I've been the recipient of a couple of those church hugs. Not once has anyone grabbed at me or at stuff on my belt.

    And yeah, you're right. It's inappropriate.

    There's definitely something wrong with Mr. Grabby. Normal people only have to be told "don't touch me like that" one time.
     
  24. Deer_Freak

    Deer_Freak Member.

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    Trunk Monkey I would imagine your area is about like mine. We have three churches in 5 miles of here, plus we have a biker church and a cowboy church. I have been to all of them and I have friends at all the churches. If I felt uncomfortable at my home church for whatever reason I would visit another church until I felt like coming back to my home church. All the churches around here except the biker church have members who are appointed to carry guns. The bikers don't say anything about guns one way or another. I would imagine the bikers have more than one gun in the church since several retired police officers worship there.

    Maybe you should let this thread die. Visit another church for a while until you get your head screwed on straight. The church will go on. You and your family will be fine and your love of god won't change. Maybe visiting the local biker church will be a good experience. You will see a lot of people that needed saving and they did indeed find god.
     
  25. Mainsail

    Mainsail Member

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    Exactly. An idiot is someone with an IQ below 30, behind even an imbecile.

    If he's an idiot, then work with him. If you chose the word idiot to be insulting, I would urge you to make an appointment with your pastor to discuss the hostility you have towards your brethren.

    John 13:34-35, Romans 12:10, Galatians 5:13, Ephesians 4:2, etc
     
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