Double Rifles

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by ShooterSean, Nov 5, 2021.

  1. ShooterSean

    ShooterSean Member

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    Is anyone making or planning to make a decent quality affordable over/under or side-by-side rifle in a North American game hunting caliber?

    Baikal makes a .308 but you can't get those right now. There are some super expensive bespoke ones you can get, but those aren't affordable.

    I think a gun like this makes perfect sense for the kind of hunting I do, so I'm curious. I'm not fast enough to ever get a second shot with a bolt or lever action, but I don't like hunting with semi-autos.
     
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  2. DM~

    DM~ Member

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    In cheapo there's used S&S, there's Biakal in 30-06, and for O/U there's Valmet 412's in several cartridges, also Tika 512's too...

    DM
     
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  3. sarduy

    sarduy Member

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    first, I would like to know what kind of hunt you do, and second, you mention you are not fast enough with a bolt or lever gun for a follow up but don’t like semi-autos? Which are the fastest way for a follow up shot…but rather do another press on a different trigger and chamber? Please explain why would you prefer a SxS instead of a semiauto for a follow up.
     
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  4. falmike

    falmike Member

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  5. Alaskan Ironworker

    Alaskan Ironworker Member

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    Double rifles technically have the fastest follow up shot of any firearm, including full autos. They are so fast you can shoot both barrels at the same time. Aiming is another matter. Some people just don't like autos. Also, autos are likely going to be heavier and longer than a double gun in a the same caliber. I wish the Baikals would return to the US market, still want one in 45-70 to go with my 30-06.
     
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  6. Dave DeLaurant

    Dave DeLaurant Member

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    I had a Baikal O/U in .308 for a short time. I had the chamber counterbored to also take the rimmed .307 Winchester, since this gun was extraction-only and the rims gave me more to grab.

    Double.gif

    While the function of this gun was OK, I discovered that with an O/U double rifle it's important to have selective ejectors -- fishing out the case from the lower barrel slows things down. That wouldn't matter as much with a SxS since both chambers are fully exposed on opening, but for the price of one halfway decent SxS rifle I could fill an 8-gun safe with other equally interesting rifles.

    For me, the Baikal was a useful learning experience. I sold it on and now limit my interest in double rifles to the pages of Double Gun Journal.
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2021
  7. Speedo66

    Speedo66 Member

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    Don't they make rifled tubes you can insert into a SXS shotgun, in calibers like .45-70?

    From what I've read, accuracy with the better ones is decent.
     
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  8. Dave DeLaurant

    Dave DeLaurant Member

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  9. gotboostvr

    gotboostvr Member

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  10. Lnf Crzr

    Lnf Crzr member

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    My 58 double is a serious rifle for hunting. 600gr conical at about 1400fps is no joke. Check out the Kodiak from Pedersoli. They are available in 45-70 as well

    Few extra photos- Oops
     

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  11. Dave DeLaurant

    Dave DeLaurant Member

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    Looks like deer in similar numbers to those invading my sister's neighborhood in Bloomington, IN.
     
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  12. Lnf Crzr

    Lnf Crzr member

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    Ya- I was at work in Suburbia and seen these doe. I think the “Karen’s” would probably be a bit skeptical if I raised up my Double 58 on em.
    That’s what the Crossbow is for. :)
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2021
  13. Archie

    Archie Member

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    One of the great strengths of the double rifle is reliability. Essentially a double is two rifles on a single stock. Internally, each barrel has it's own firing system, so failure of the port barrel has no effect on the starboard barrel working.
    Another very valid reason for the two quick shots from a double instead of a semi-automatic is designing the action to be strong enough to handle an African dangerous game round. Not to mention the length of the round and consequently, action. I remember several decades ago a gun magazine write up of a Browning "BAR" (the commercial using the name for marketing) rebarreled to some huge caliber. (One of the Winchester 'belted' calibers, I think.) Never heard it mentioned again.
     
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  14. Lnf Crzr

    Lnf Crzr member

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    When I went to Africa as a assistant to a Ph for a few months,The gentleman I worked for had a 416 rem. Model 700 safari.
    I asked “Why not a Double?” He stated 2 shots, Reload 2more…. Or cycle the action multiple times. Different people have different opinions.

    I will tell you, that 416 rem Had a good kick, I sure as hell wouldn’t want to fire both barrels at the same time on a double in that caliber.

    My 58 can have 2 balls loaded on each barrel. That’s 1120grs of Lead and both barrels at same time fired. It’s a heck of a back up to my 375 Weatherby or Vice Versa

    A tad bit much, if only you “Don’t” need it at that time!

    Ghost ring makes for fast sighting
     

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    Last edited: Nov 6, 2021
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  15. 792mauser

    792mauser Member

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    Love being able to pull both barrels on my Baikal 45-70.
    Especially with top loaded BP.
    Regulating and loading to the sights is a issue but meh. It's a double rifle. Even a bad one still oozes limited amounts of class.

    Also funnily enough, there's there's gent at the range I frequent that has a 470 NE double that shoots it for familiarization occasionally. Dayum! That's a good sized cartridge.
     
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  16. eastbank

    eastbank Member

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    i wouldn,t mind a light double in 30-30 for a stalking rifle in heavy brush.
     
  17. codytrucker

    codytrucker Member

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    I always thought if a company would make a side by side shotgun with rifled barrels in the style of a double rifle , they would sell an awful lot of them . 20 gauge w/26 inch barrels . Simple regulated parallel bores , good enough for slug gun ranges . rifle style stock. what's not to like ?
     
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  18. Ironhand54

    Ironhand54 Member

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    Browning Citori used to be available in rifle calibers

    Ironhand
     
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  19. Jim Watson

    Jim Watson Member

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    How is the regulation? When they first came out, they had two sights, you were expected to flip leaves as you changed barrels. Yeah, right. American Rifleman fiddled with one to get both barrels to shoot together by different loads specific to each side. OK starting the day, but it might be a memory game to reload in the field.

    Connecticut Shotgun Manufacturing Co. will make you an RBL 20 gauge "bore rifle". $4999 and up. Way up.
    https://connecticutshotgun.co/rbl-professional-sabot-slug-gun-20ga-24-barrels-51681/

    Never saw a Citori rifle but they made some Superposed rifles, here are several varieties for sale.
    https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/rifles/browning-rifles-double-combination.c266_p1_o6.cfm
     
  20. Lnf Crzr

    Lnf Crzr member

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    Jim, My 58 Pedersoli Double from Cabelas was built in 1996. It has a single rear express sight with three leafs. I’m sure I’ve mentioned this before. It’s regulated at 50 yards. Both barrels shoot 2” high and both hit bullseye ,offhand as if hunting. With a 280gr patched round ball the 80grs of FFg is soft shooting yet equivalent to a 44 magnum 270gr Cartridge… and a 44 mag 270gr can do ALOT…tho larger diameter. It’s approximately 1,250 fps. For close woods hunting on whitetail it’s a sledgehammer. 9.5lbs and counting by days end, yet not bad. The rear Ghost ring is nice for focusing just on the front sight. At 80yards… I’m sure I’ll flip up the second leaf. It’s a formidable firearm for muzzloader hunting.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2021
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  21. DM~

    DM~ Member

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    It's NOT simple and parallel bores does NOT work, that's what Browning did with there 0/U rifles, and their regulation was terrible!

    DM
     
  22. Dave DeLaurant

    Dave DeLaurant Member

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    The cheapest way to regulate at double rifle is with a user-adjustable system like Valmet or Baikal, but even that is far from simple to do correctly. It does drastically cut the labor cost for regulation from production.

    This video gives a very basic, non-technical overview of the Valmet regulation system (about the half-way mark):



    Once regulated, a double rifle generally groups properly only for one specific load, though through careful adjustments in bullet weight and velocity owners can concoct alternative loadings that will also work. That's one of the joys of buying an old double rifle originally regulated for cordite loads.

    A couple decades back an Aussie friend who owed me a favor got me a signed copy of this book from the author:

    BritishDoubleRifle.jpg

    https://www.amazon.com/Shooting-British-Double-Rifle-Development/dp/0949749400
     
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  23. DM~

    DM~ Member

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    Well, he's a bit "loose" with accuracy he gives with some of the info on the Valmet 412's, but bottom line is, they are a fairly decent DR.

    DM...
     
  24. StrawHat

    StrawHat Member

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    Instead of a double rifle, I would like to see the H&H Paradox make a comeback. I will take one in 16 please.

    Kevin
     
  25. Dave DeLaurant

    Dave DeLaurant Member

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    You might find this channel interesting. These guys do extensive slow-motion photography of a wide variety of shotgun projectiles for accuracy and terminal effect. They generally use smooth, fully-rifled and rifled choke barrels for accuracy comparisons.

    https://www.youtube.com/c/taofledermaus/videos

    A modern rifled choke doesn't resemble a true Fosbery-type Paradox, since the latter has rifling at the muzzle that's very aggressive, almost ratchet-like.



    Ross Seyfried has written a number of articles on the real-deal Paradox for Double Gun Journal and others. Here's one of his pieces from the Westly-Richards' website:

    https://www.westleyrichards.com/theexplora/a-paradoxical-return-the-restoration-of-an-exquisitely-rare-gun-ross-seyfried-for-the-explora/
     
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