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Double Tap, Triple Tap, or Until Empty

Discussion in 'Handguns: General Discussion' started by earlthegoat2, Mar 4, 2010.

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  1. earlthegoat2

    earlthegoat2 Member

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    Every once in a while I am reading on here things that bring up a new idea to my little brain.

    During my self guided training sessions I usually triple tap a target before going on to the next. (we are talking handguns here) I am using a 9mm or 38 Special all the time. My question or general point to this thread though is to ask whether this is sound training or should I train for the unlikely event in which I am confronted in a deadly scenario by more than two assailants?

    With my 5 shot revolver and a triple tap just done I am down to 2 rounds which will sort out a 2nd assailant but then what about the third? Should I go 1 and 1 and run or should i have gone 2 and 2 and 1 and run or maybe just run?

    Anyway, I am curious on the thoughts of other members regarding the double tap, triple tap, or if you just fire until empty.
     
  2. RippinSVT

    RippinSVT Member

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    Two shots to center of mass automatically, or until threat is incapacitated. A reload drill might help too.


    But you'll get 100 other opinions where people argue over the little details. :)
     
  3. steveracer

    steveracer Member

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    What I tell my people when conducting small arms training and deadly force training is:
    Nobody pays you extra to turn in unfired ammo.
    If faced with a threat that needs to be cancelled by shooting, no amount of shooting is ever enough. Controlls pairs might do it, but 17 unsurviveable hits and the bastard might take four minutes to stop fighting. If you run dry, and the smoke clears, reload and wait for the cavalry. NEVER holster an empty gun. NEVER.
     
  4. silversport

    silversport Member

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    'til you feel safe again...(written a bit tongue in cheek but I bet you get the idea ;) )
    Bill
     
  5. mcdonl

    mcdonl Member

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    Ok... what about this... man walks towards you, pulls knife and says I am going to cut you. You pull your gun, shoot him once and he drops the knife and falls down screaming... ok ok... dont kill me.

    Do you just go ahead and keep shooting until he is dead?
     
  6. ambidextrous1

    ambidextrous1 Member

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    I don't think so; the threat has been stopped.

    Regarding multiple assailants, I favor "Boarding house rules": Everyone gets served once before anyone gets a second helping.

    This rule is subject to modification if one of the wounded assailants is getting in your face.
     
  7. Quoheleth

    Quoheleth Member

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    That's classic...deserves to be a sig line somewhere.

    Q
     
  8. Gunfighter123

    Gunfighter123 Member

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    The school of thought is to " shoot untill the threat is DOWN " ---- if you have to shoot someone and they are still on their feet -- more then likely , THEY ARE STILL A THREAT.

    Now I already see the replies and so ------ IF you shot them and they drop the weapon or stop their life threatening actions --- you would ORDER them to lay prone with hands empty etc. and NOT KEEP SHOOTING THEM till they are down !!!

    As to how to "train" ---- you NEED TO VARY IT --- learn to shoot close to far targets , far to close targets , multiple targets { a 3 foot lathe with paper plates spaced out" , left to right , right to left ---- one shot on each target , Mozie Drill 2 to the body and then 1 to the head {BGs do wear BP vests} --- again , be creative in your training.
     
  9. earlthegoat2

    earlthegoat2 Member

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    I understand the shoot to stop philosophy but what about a preemptive shoot to stop by shooting 3 times before surveying whether they have indeed been stopped or not?
     
  10. possum

    possum Member

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    shoot to stop the threat only. in training i don't shoot the same amount of rounds everytime. sometimes it is 2-3, then others it is 4-6 rds. i even do "won't stop drills" which is baasically a faliure to stop, but it consist of 4-6 rds in the high center chest 2-3 rds in the pelvis and then headshots. why the pelvis instead of the head to begin with? the pelvis is bigger, the head moves and bobs, in the context of self defense, there is most likly gonna be innocent bystandards around. plus there is alot of nasty things that run through the pelvic region that will stop the threat from possing leathal threat to you.

    when you train change it up, there are to many leo's that have died with 2 rds fired from thier sidearm, and the gun in the holster when they were found. why is that? training, it can hurt you as much as it can help you, draw fire 2 and reholster, the threat hasn't stoped, but they have done it so much that that is what some have done.

    same thing in the day of revolvers as issued sidearms. at the range while qualing, when they would fire all thier rounds they would dumb the empty in thier hand then put them in thier pocket so they wouldn't have to bend down to pick up the brass. again several good leo's were found dead after a shoot out with an assaliant with brass in his pockets.

    training scares be aware of them and avoid them. take a training course if you can, and i don't mean one of the NRA ones either, that might be a good star, but save your money on that and go to a good school, that teaches the mindset, tactics, and helps you achieve the skills that you need.
     
  11. Gunfighter123

    Gunfighter123 Member

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    If more then two BGs --- one shot on each COM , and then scan to see who is still a threat.
     
  12. lions

    lions Member

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    That was what I was going to try to say but I couldn't have said it better.

    Just remember in training for this that the threats may not be lined up from left to right by order of severity. It could be center, right, left; right, left, center or any combination of numbers and placement. I was initially caught up in a nice left to right line and thought I was good until I tried going right to left.:(
     
  13. RyanM

    RyanM Member

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    How many shots it will take is very situational. Someone could remain on their feet and surrender. Or they could fall down, and then keep shooting at you!

    The best training would be with some kind of reactive or timed target that falls down after a varying number of shots, but that kind of thing tends to be expensive.

    You should also have some kind of plan in mind for if you empty your gun, and the guy is still on his feet.
     
  14. Silent Bob

    Silent Bob Member

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    An instructor once told me to fire until they were stopped, however, in the case of a multiple assailants, engage each once, then come back and repeat if necessary.
     
  15. Old Fuff

    Old Fuff Member

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    Do remember that in a civilian (as opposed to military) shooting situation you are responsible for each and every shot you fire, and if any of your bullets go astray and cause some “collateral damage,” like a hit on the wrong person you will be up to your neck in serious trouble. In addition if your intended target has too many bullet holes in him the question of summary execution may come to haunt you as an aftereffect. There is some value to the idea that fewer well-placed shots are better then “taps,” regardless of the number. :uhoh:
     
  16. USAFRetired

    USAFRetired Member

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    That's why I carry 45ACP. I want that 1st (and maybe only) shot to "show I care enough to send the very best";)
     
  17. rswartsell

    rswartsell Member

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    +1 for Old Fuff (as usual)
     
  18. blitzen

    blitzen Member

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    If faced with multiple assailants and armed with a 5 shot revolver, I would hope that I'm Jerry Miculek. Since I'm not, I carry a hi cap auto with a spare mag. Something to think about if it's going to keep you up at night!
     
  19. Old Fuff

    Old Fuff Member

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    Not to worry, I sleep very well... :)
     
  20. blitzen

    blitzen Member

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    I don't dought you at all!+1
     
  21. kingmt

    kingmt Member

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    I have never been in a multiple attacker assault but the way I was trained for it was 2 placed shoots for each target before you move on to the next. If you had a no hit or was unsure of 1 then you gave it a third but then moved on. You also approached the target(s) while firing unlike others that teach you to step backwards.

    Reasons: It takes less time to put 2 shoots in each target as you go but you have to move to the next target so don't just keep engaging 1. If you are approaching your target then you are harder to hit & they become easier to hit (I don't know why this is but It is true) & if you are walking backwards then you can't see where you are going. You can cover about 10' in 2 seconds so the attackers can usually be brought into range & it is going to flip them out since you flipped the table on them.
     
  22. asiparks

    asiparks Member

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    "why did you shoot him 13 times ?"
    "because that's all the magazine holds"

    From an SAS trooper questioned over shooting IRA member Danny McCann as part of Operation Flavius in '88

    as others have said, there's no rhyme or reason to how many rounds a person will take before stopping.
     
  23. Quadkid

    Quadkid Member

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    What Hollywood taught me through Zombieland...

     
  24. bwsmith2850

    bwsmith2850 Member

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    Current thinking in our training is to shoot until the threat is stopped rather than a specific double/triple/whatever tap. A prescribed number of shots has been known to have people shooting twice then looking to see what happened while rounds are still incoming.

    You are shooting to keep him from killing you so you shoot until his will or ability to continue his attack is gone. That is when he gives up, runs away, or goes down and stays there without still trying to pull the trigger.

    Not to start a caliber war, but Old Fluff has put his finger on the 'bring enough gun' argument.
    You will usually have to use fewer bullets of a large heavy caliber than a small light one. Is it impossible to explain 19 .22 holes? No. Is it easier to explain 5 .357, .40 or .45 holes? Yes. The answer to both is 'he was still trying to kill me before the final shot.' But since 19 shots sells more papers than 5 shots the media will try to make a big deal about how terrible it was you had to shoot your attacker so many times. Food for thought when choosing a lead injector.
     
  25. bds

    bds Member

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    The reasonable notion is keep shooting until the threat is neutralized - people don't die/drop when they are shot - often they don't even know that they were shot at all.

    In real life shooting, things are very much different. Due to my line of work, I talked to many surviving shooting victims and they often state that they did not know they were shot, at first. Many often continue on adrenaline until blood pressure drop slows the body/brain down. When they come around, they say the shots felt like major league slugger hitting them with bats with 9 in nails.

    One local PD officer was observed shooting a rushing subject with the entire 15 round magazine in a matter of seconds before the subject dropped to the ground. He thought he only fired maybe 4-5 rounds, until he saw the slide locked back with an empty magazine.
     
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