Double Tap Vrs. Rapid Fire

[RobMoore]

Fair enough, but I think if it was a one shot stop, the prosecuter would have just went with a slightly different angle. The jury only asked those questions because the prosecutor put it in their heads.

 

[Madman308]

Rhodesian Drill

I read about the Rhodesian Drill, two to the body, one to the head. it is harder than you would think. I practice this everytime I go shooting.
With a 9mm, it is important that your first shot is a kill shot. Even with Hollowpoints. I have a mag loaded with "Safety Slugs" 9mm hollowpoints with the hollow part filled with very small bbs.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Without splitting hairs, you're missing a couple of steps that are all too often skipped in SD training. They get skipped because we don't often have access to ranges that allow us to teach them properly:

Step 1: MOVE!!! Get off the X!!
Step 2: Draw.
Step 3: Keep moving!!! Toward cover if it's available.
Step 3: Shoot! Keep shooting until the perp(s) is/are down or they give up the attack.
Step 4: Re-assess the situation from behind cover.


Mark Wilson probably left out steps 1, 3, and most certainly step 4. Unfortunately, the local indoor range takes a dim view of folks running back and forth, crossing lanes, and firing. This is one training gap where IDPA, IPSC and the other competitions of like nature can at least help you retain some muscle memory of what to do besides standing in one place while checking to see if you hit the target.

Mark Wilson was shot while behind cover. In fact, he was using the engine compartment of a truck for cover. Depending on accounts, he was shot while engaging from behind cover.

As it turned out, he engaged the bad guy from behind the engine compartment of the BG's own truck. Wilson opened up on the BG during a lull in the BG's firing (reloading, I recall). That got the BG's attention who turned and engaged Wilson. The distance was something like 2-3 parking spaces away.

The Wiki account of the exchange is about right...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyler_courthouse_shooting

Arroyo was already engaged in a heated gun battle with sheriff's deputies and Tyler police officers and apparently did not see Wilson.
Wilson fired one round at Arroyo, causing him to stumble. A witness saw the round strike Arroyo and saw "white puffs of powder-like substance" come from Arroyo's clothing. This appeared to be the first time Arroyo was hit or injured during his attack on the courthouse. Wilson then took cover behind Arroyo's truck.

As Arroyo approached, Wilson stood up and fired again at Arroyo over the truck, hitting him; however, Arroyo was wearing a bulletproof vest, and Wilson's shots did not disable him. Arroyo turned and fired at least one shot at Wilson, who faltered and disappeared from view behind the truck. Arroyo then fired at him three times, killing him.

So Wilson shot, moved of the mythical X and did moved to cover. He engaged the threat from cover. Basically, he did a lot of things right given the choices he made for battle, but still lost. He likely had no way to know that the cover he had chosen was the BG's own vehicle and the BG was determined to use it for his egress.

 

[Jeff White]

So Wilson shot, moved of the mythical X and did moved to cover. He engaged the threat from cover. Basically, he did a lot of things right given the choices he made for battle, but still lost. He likely had no way to know that the cover he had chosen was the BG's own vehicle and the BG was determined to use it for his egress.

This brings up an important point. You can do everything right the day of your gunfight and still die! That's the nature of the beast. Something you should keep in mind when you are making your decision to fight or flee.

Jeff

 

[taprackbang]

Don't practice any preset number of shots over and over again. Always mix it up. Nobody knows how many shots it will take ahead of time. Could be 1, 5, 2, the whole magazine plus a reload, or none.

The above clinches it best in my mind. Mix it up!!!!!
Clint Smith of Thunder Ranch says that when you are in a fight, you must expect the worst, and that your shots may not stop the threat.
Always be prepared to rise to higher level of tactical nuance.

 

[B yond]

What is this shoot 2 and re-assess? ALWAYS assess! You don't shut off your brain while shooting, if you want to live.

That's steps 0 and 1.5.

 

[Zedo]

Massad Ayoob stresses that you "train" to point. If you drill to shoot, you'll shoot reflexively when/if you draw your gun.

If you're forced to draw, you want to think about if you're going to shoot -- It needs to be rational and deliberate, not reflexive.

Law here says "sufficient to stop the threat" (Oregon).

BOOM, BOOM . . . and look over the sights for a "threat check."

Shot placement -- 500 Smith & Wesson won't stop the threat if you don't place the shot.

 

[kcshooter]

Five rounds in a wee revolver with crappy sights, does not cut it.

Bull.

Most SD encounters aren't against a gang with uzi's. "Rule of three" isn't a theory, it's an evaluation of incidents. 3 shots, 3 feet, 3 seconds.

I always smile to myself when I see someone carrying a gun with 18 rounds and 2 spare magazines.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

I always smile when folks already know the fight they are going to have.

 

[kcshooter]

Knowing the fight you are going to have, and being logical enough to realize that 54 rounds are overkill are two completely different things.

I don't feel that the many revolver guys around here are going out without enough gun. Occasionally a j-frame is all I carry, usually with a loader. Often I go out with 1911 without a spare magazine, although I usually do carry a spare. My 16+1 rounds have never made me feel as though I just didn't have enough bullets to get thru my day.

 

[hso]

Gentlemen,

Lest we forget, what happens most of the time isn't what happens every time. The consequences of having a slightly hazy crystal ball influences what each of us decides to do personally.

 

[Exmasonite]

back to the OP's question, i try to train on multiple targets spaced somewhat close together. the point is not to much to engage multiple targets (although that is another concern), but to simulate movement . to be honest, my ideal target would be something that is moving slowly and unpredictably, causing me to track it.

at times at the range, i'll have a buddy engage the "pulley" to have the target advance. not exactly the most realistic but still teaches your eyes/mind to negotiate a target that is changing range. not as easy as i thought it'd be at first.

not to derail the thread but anybody have any cheap ideas for simulating a moving terrestrial target?

 

[kcshooter]

not to derail the thread but anybody have any cheap ideas for simulating a moving terrestrial target?

One of my favorite training games is to tie a helium ballon on to the back of rc car and have a friend control it. It's actually just as fun to be the driver as the shooter and it really builds a solid skill, too.

 

[Old Guy]

kcshooter

Quote:
Five rounds in a wee revolver with crappy sights, does not cut it.

Bull.

Most SD encounters aren't against a gang with uzi's. "Rule of three" isn't a theory, it's an evaluation of incidents. 3 shots, 3 feet, 3 seconds.

I always smile to myself when I see someone carrying a gun with 18 rounds and 2 spare magazines.

Let me explain in real terms what a fight is, with weapons, or without.

A fight is a totally unknown incident, that if it could have been predicted, would not have you, a sensible person, as a participant!

What on earth is wrong with a Glock 19, and a spare magazine (Glock 17 spare) carried every day? In a holster, concealed. Getting dressed for this retired old chap means I have had a shower, cleaned teeth put clothes on, and a pistol, and a spare magazine most likely to be deployed, not to send more ammunition down range, but rather if a malfunction occurs!

It works for one shot or 16 prior to a reload. If it is never fired in anger? So what? Like the vehicle Insurance you pay $1,000.00 a year for, why do you need it, you do not go out to have an accident do you?

Our local Supermarket is a haven of everyday people shopping, with clean, friendly staff.

My Wife is a shopper that shops, like most of the customers in this large, clean establishment.

A couple of weeks ago three Gang bangers entered the store, walked around, no baskets, no cart! just eying customers! I and more than one other male customers eyed them right back! It was like the sitting on the stool in the corner of the ring, tension descended like a cloud.

I have been shopping there for 5 years! never seen a stand out of trouble to be like it, a big young man close to me caught my eye, and continued to track the three. They walked out, he nodded at me, I nodded back. We went about our shopping, my Wife noticed nothing.

One incident in 5 years, one. What did it mean? I don't know, why were they there, I don't know, but that clean, loaded, quite new (a year or more is new!) Glock 19 with TruGlow sights, felt really good.

Spoke to a floor Manager I have spoken to before, "Yes I saw them" he said.

No, you do not carry a gun to get into a fight, you carry a gun because this is America! And you (and I) can!

 

[sacp81170a]

Mark Wilson was shot while behind cover. In fact, he was using the engine compartment of a truck for cover. Depending on accounts, he was shot while engaging from behind cover.

My bad. I posted sound general principles and shouldn't have made a comment on a specific incident without knowing the details.

This brings up an important point. You can do everything right the day of your gunfight and still die! That's the nature of the beast. Something you should keep in mind when you are making your decision to fight or flee.

The awful truth.

 

[kcshooter]

I don't know, but that clean, loaded, quite new (a year or more is new!) Glock 19 with TruGlow sights, felt really good.

And a 5-rd revolver with a 5-rd reload wouldn't have been enough gun here? How so? I'm glad you're comfortable with a Glock, but my point was that the wheelgunner with the j-frame is sufficiently armed. Or me, with my 1911, totalling 9 rounds, would I be undergunned?

I think not.

 

[Jaenak]

Unfortunately your question is a moot point. The vast majority of people train for double taps and when they find themselves needing to use their knowledge, they double tap the BG once, maybe twice and later find out they fired about 14 rounds in 2.5 seconds. Train for double taps but realize that when you *ahem* IF you find yourself in a self defense situation, you WILL end up rapid firing.