Douglas County Schools buy AR-15's!

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But- but- how can they possibly use a weapon of war like this safely among the children if they aren't military or sworn LE? Feinstein says these things are designed for "spray fire". Biden recommends randomly firing a shotgun in the air at the first hint of trouble, since the AR15 is inherently difficult to use. Shall these "security personnel" be limited to the 15 round magazine capacity limit like the rest of the peasants of Colorado?
 
@RPRNY - I would not confine the issue of "accuracy" to just LEO's. Most civilian CCW's don't exactly have high hit to shots fired ratios either. The vast majority of police shootings are snap judgement, reactionary shootings involving handguns. This is an entirely different stress mechanic than an active shooter engagement and it changes the body far more rapidly and uncontrollably.

I understand your fear, but there are more than a few things to consider here. First, rifles are "more accurate" than handguns are. The longer sight radius, the larger sights, the use of red dots (occasionally) and other aiming devices make the rifle a far better tool for this job than you seem comfortable to admit. Size and weight also helps mitigate recoil and improves follow up shot accuracy tremendously.

Second, the ranges inside of the most common schools is outside that of a handgun. This allows responding personnel to engage threats at much longer distances than with a handgun AND with more accuracy.

Third, The stresses are entirely different and far easier to control in an active shooter situation than the reactionary shootings most LEO's are involved in. Why do you think hit ratios are up in situations in which officers have the initiative in the fight? Because they can slow down and process what is happening and focus on the fundamentals. Active shooter training for me, both at the academy and with my department focused a lot on building search techniques, just sped up to cover more ground quickly (and employ A LOT of movement to contact drills when there is shooting actively going on). No matter how you play this out, short of the guy leaping out of the classroom you are approaching, you have time to effectively concentrate on what you are doing. That's not to say stress doesn't impact your accuracy, it does, but it is far easier to control than the stress of having someone go from cooperative to assaultive on the street.

As for the choice in tool... a 9mm carbine (what few exist in any reliable function) actually doesn't offer much of anything over a 9mm handgun except longer sight radius and recoil reduction through increased weight. The 9mm round does not gain speed in the longer barrel of a PCC and in some cases loses it. About the only PCC caliber that would gain speed are the hot rounds like the .40S&W, 10mm, 357 sig, etc.

Their effectiveness at the ranges inside of a school are dubious. The schools in the jurisdiction I work have hallways that at their extremes are over 100 yards long. A PCC is really struggling at those ranges to make lethal and accurate hits. An AR15 with a 25m battle zero is pretty much within an inch or two of the point of aim at 100 yards and the round is extremely lethal at that range (and beyond). Also, PCC's and handguns in general will penetrate barriers much easier than the higher velocity poodle popper an AR15 is shooting. The last reason NOT to have PCC's is armor penetration. It's going to take a whole different set of body armor to stop a .223 coming from an AR than a handgun round and while I'd like to think that the majority of these monsters shooting up schools don't wear armor, how many are wearing rifle rated armor? Probably very few.

Also, with the flatness of the trajectory of the .223 in the ranges in which a school typically has, there is a lot less stress in aiming knowing that I can put the sights on target and hit within a very small circle of that point of aim no matter what range the person is at. This really helps remove that added stress of having to manually calculate bullet drop at range for the bullet you are shooting.

EDIT: I don't know about other departments, but mine (a smaller town west of Lincoln), the rifle training and shotgun training ammo allotments is near zero. I get 50 rounds of .45ACP a month for the handgun, assuming we have ammo, but the only time we get to do rifle or shotgun practice is in our once a year qualifications with those firearms. The problem with that is two-fold: Does the city have the money to support officers practicing more with their patrol rifles? -and- Is the administration going to muster up enough courage to ask for that money if it is available? In my case, the last question is the biggest hurdle, the first, not so much.
 
@RPRNY - I would not confine the issue of "accuracy" to just LEO's. Most civilian CCW's don't exactly have high hit to shots fired ratios either.

Correct. Private citizens carriers don't have any better hit/miss rates than LEO...and LEO are prone to more difficult situations where they are going proactive, going after somebody, firing in defense of another...less "this guy is attacking me at my face" stuff.
 
Originally posted by FL-NC

But- but- how can they possibly use a weapon of war like this safely among the children if they aren't military or sworn LE? Feinstein says these things are designed for "spray fire". Biden recommends randomly firing a shotgun in the air at the first hint of trouble, since the AR15 is inherently difficult to use. Shall these "security personnel" be limited to the 15 round magazine capacity limit like the rest of the peasants of Colorado?
On the other hand, her equally clueless cohort, Barbra Boxer assures us "Assault weapons don't miss."
 
Just curious as to where some folks think those guns should be stored? Locked in a car seems to be about as close as is reasonable aside from packing it from a sling all day.
Be interested in hearing where and how they are secured in the patrol cars.

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I thought a little more on this and a situation came to mind where a rifle in the trunk might beat a handgun on the waist: A large animal. It is conceivable that a large animal, perhaps a bull or moose, could be enough threat to require the rifle but not immediate enough to allow time to retrieve it.
 
Well Vern I'm afraid Douglas County is a long way from Vietnam. Not aware of a school in the US that has security carrying rifles through the halls, not even in the good old days.

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I suppose it would be much like regular police in that they rarely (without extreme circumstances) carry a carbine but always seem to have them available.
We don't know how Douglas County organises patrols so it's impossible to determine how many of their cops are in a patrol car at any given time but most schools I've seen have reserved police parking near the entrances so from a practical standpoint their cars may be as close as a locker inside might be.
Whatever we may believe, there is no way I see a school district with their cops walking the halls with a rifle slung.
Personally I'd rather see states allow staff or volunteers to carry and take the money they spend on building their own police force and put it towards training staff and volunteers.

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So what's the point of having the rifles at all, if they aren't instantly accessable?
Our police officers (practically speaking) never carry rifles or carbines around, either, unless there is a clear and immediate reason to.

No matter how dramatic the accounts, school shootings (and especially "active shooter" mass shootings where a rifle may be the best choice), are incredibly rare things in our nation today.

You were a company commander in an active war zone and I'd imagine you saw, heard, or knew of shots being fired at least every week if not every day. Can you perceive the difference between that situation and sending these school officers off on their rounds with a rifle at all times to counter a threat that appears (very generously estimated) once a decade SOMEWHERE in a whole state, and at any given school, statistically NEVER?

Most schools have never had a shooting, ever. Of the schools where shots have been fired, probably 1 in 1,000 involved any sort of "active shooter" situation like Columbine or Sandy Hook.

It would make as much sense to say why isn't the fire department required to bring their trucks to the school every morning and wait there? How many lives could be saved in a big blaze if we don't have to wait for the FD to get all the way across town? After all, fire's pretty dangerous, and WAAAY more common than mass shootings!
 
So what's the point of having the rifles at all, if they aren't instantly accessable?

Because the rifle are avaliable in 1 minute rather than 15 minutes. That potentially cuts out 14 minutes of bad guys shooting people.



I'll go ahead and repeat myself.

A rifle locked in a car on campus is a heck of a lot more quickly accessable than a rifle locked in a car 15 miles away.

ETA: The car thats 15 miles away with a rifle in it I'm referring to is a cop car.
 
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Pilot, I think Lone Tree is mainly apt living? Were you in an apartment there?
No, I had a single family home. Lone Tree is mostly cul-de-sac neighborhoods, with single family homes. I lived near the Lone Tree Country Club.
 
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Our police officers (practically speaking) never carry rifles or carbines around, either, unless there is a clear and immediate reason to.
But the police officer is usually INSIDE the car where the gun is stored. He doesn't have to leave a building (possibly under fire), get his rifle, and then run back -- all while people are being killed.
No matter how dramatic the accounts, school shootings (and especially "active shooter" mass shootings where a rifle may be the best choice), are incredibly rare things in our nation today.
Of course they're rare! It's the media that makes us think they are happening all around us.

My point is, if you NEED a rifle, you need it NOW.

Consider the officer at Columbine, who left the school because he "only had 7 rounds left" and who "went for help." He did no good for the children he was supposed to protect, and later committed suicide. I wouldn't want to set myself up to duplicate that performance, leaving the scene to get my rifle while children were being killed.
 
IMO making a big deal of arming School Cops with carbines is largely a feel good measure and the district would be better served if they armed some of the staff.
You get a cop with a slung rifle in a crowded hallway with 100% of the students having video cameras and the cop has to deal with a less than lethal situation and you'll end up with some pretty inflammatory video as the muzzle waves around or the gun clatters to the ground.
Not a good idea for the same reason as those who opposed the long gun movement in Texas.
 
IMO making a big deal of arming School Cops with carbines is largely a feel good measure and the district would be better served if they armed some of the staff.
Exactly right. There really is no need for long guns in such a situation, and if there IS a need for a long arm, this policy doesn't meet that need. Two solutions come to mind:

1. Keep one officer armed with an AR 15 separate from the others -- he doesn't need to interact with students, any more than a stake out cop in a convenience store needs to interact with students.

2. Store the AR 15s INSIDE the building, only a few feet from the cops' duty stations.
 
Ahh I see your point and certainly agree. I was envisioning cops patrolling the halls with sling rifles every day for years on end and that's pretty absurd.
 
Pilot, my wife corrected me on that one. I thought possibly you lived amongst apartment dwellers who as a whole might have different political leanings than home owners. I was thinking Park Meadows drive.
 
Just a heads up from someone who has received active shooter training... the only way we are exiting the building once inside is if the bad guy is dead, we ourselves are too injured to fight, or we are no longer combat effective. If I were a School Resource Officer and an active shooter happened while I was in the building, the LAST thing I'd do is leave the building to get the rifle in the trunk of the cruiser. Not happening. the training I received was very clear on this: Active Shooter situations end quicker when the person is actively engaged by armed persons. I have 31 rounds of ammo for my duty weapon, I'll make them count and either delay the attacker until help arrives or place those shots well to end the threat.

I agree, if they are going to be there, this seems pointless if the officers are inside more than they are in their vehicles. If they are in their vehicles more than inside then I can understand the policy. Ideally, you'd want an SRO stationed in the office area while another was walking the halls... that office area would be an invaluable area to store the firearm then.
 
The SRO's at DCSO often have more than one long gun issued and available to them. I'm not saying that because I am guessing, I am saying that because I know. The armed school security is a school patrol unit that goes from school to school. The high schools have an SRO, and most of the elementary and middle schools do not. They are dropped in on by school marshals (patrol deputies) and DCSD armed security.

While we can think of scenarios where it would be inadvisable to go out to get a long gun, what if he is just pulling up to a school and sees the active shooter at 60 yards (Columbine)? How about 200 yards? He should have the tools to engage at the longer range rather than chase and have to hunt an active shooter inside with only a pistol. The rifles are a just in case.

As to the question of why not add more deputies instead of these armed security? A few reasons: Deputies cost a lot more money (top out pay is 75K+). Deputies are available as SROs only during the school day, and these guys can work afternoons, evenings, and over night. Finally, the armed patrol security is directly under the school district, so it simplifies logistics and command and control.
 
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While we can think of scenarios where it would be inadvisable to go out to get a long gun, what if he is just pulling up to a school and sees the active shooter at 60 yards (Columbine)? How about 200 yards? He should have the tools to engage at the longer range rather than chase and have to hunt an active shooter inside with only a pistol. The rifles are a just in case.
Nobody says a deputy IN A CAR should not have a long arm in the car with him. But once he exits the car and enters the building, the long arm is no use to him -- unless we want an armed officer to abandon the children and run back out into the parking lot.

If you have officers stationed in the building, and if they have long arms, those arms should be IN the building.
 
X-Rap said:
Just curious as to where some folks think those guns should be stored? Locked in a car seems to be about as close as is reasonable aside from packing it from a sling all day.
Be interested in hearing where and how they are secured in the patrol cars.

At my now ex city government employment, all 100+ uniformed officers kept their Remington 870 shotguns in their cruisers trunk, standing or moving, all 3 shifts, 24 hours a day. Removed upon need ,of course.
 
Vern, the School Resource Officers have access to rifles and/or shotguns in the buildings they are posted as well as their vehicles. The DCSD armed patrol officers do not have access to these, nor are these armed officers stopping in often at the buildings where the SRO's are on a frequent basis. These are 2 different government entities, and they do not share equipment.

DCSD bought the rifles so that their armed patrol would have access to a rifle, which they did not have access to before. These armed patrol guys go from school to school, and DCSD did not want to put a safe in each school with a rifle in it, as there are over 70+ individual schools in Douglas County. There are also administrative buildings as well. A safe and a rifle in each one would easily cost a couple of hundred thousand dollars to do it right. At least now their armed patrol have access to a rifle.
 
Originally posted by IlikeSA

Vern, the School Resource Officers have access to rifles and/or shotguns in the buildings they are posted as well as their vehicles. The DCSD armed patrol officers do not have access to these, nor are these armed officers stopping in often at the buildings where the SRO's are on a frequent basis. These are 2 different government entities, and they do not share equipment.

DCSD bought the rifles so that their armed patrol would have access to a rifle, which they did not have access to before. These armed patrol guys go from school to school, and DCSD did not want to put a safe in each school with a rifle in it, as there are over 70+ individual schools in Douglas County. There are also administrative buildings as well. A safe and a rifle in each one would easily cost a couple of hundred thousand dollars to do it right. At least now their armed patrol have access to a rifle.

Three points:

1. As others have pointed out, the officers IN the buildings should have access to their weapons IN the buildings. IF the proper authorities consider they need longarms, the longarms must be in the building. An officer cannot abandon an active shooting scene to run out into the parking lot to get his longarm. For better or worse, he must stay there and engage the shooter with whatever weapon he has.

2. If officers are driving from school to school, they should be equipped like all other officers -- including with a longarm in the patrol car.

3. If an officer enters a building and an active shooter starts firing, see point 1.
 
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