Dpms Ar?

[Beren]

A local SOT has only good things to say about DPMS. They lack some of the technical features that Colt and others have in terms of barrel steel, testing, etc, but if those features aren't critical to your intended use, then why worry?

You might also check what used DPMS rifles are fetching. If you do want to sell or upgrade some day, some rifles will hold their value better than others.

Have you considered buying a stripped AR lower receiver, building it out, and then slapping a DPMS or LMT upper on it?

 

[ugaarguy]

Bushmaster, DPMS, are a bit better quality than a colt. Believe me the colt Ar-15 is good quality, I have no complaints about them, but not as good as the DPMS or Bushmaster.

Then why does Bushmaster only do batch MPI on their barrels and no HPT? Why does Bushmaster not offer any AR with HPI & MPT bolt? Why does DPMS not do any of that? Do you even know what MPI & HPT are? If you think DPMS and Bushmaster are building better quality rifles than Colt you're fooling yourself. Why is a hard chromed barrel an additional charge with DPMS, but standard on Bushmaster, Colt, Daly, LMT, and others? Why are the reports on the web of DPMS rifles with barrels marked 5.56, but reamed with .223 chambers? I've also seen that personally at work. I've also seen Bushmaster ship rifles that have undersized .223 chambers. You just don't get these issues with Colt, S&W, and higher end brands because they have better quality control.

I own a S&W handgun that has been around for years, its obvious that S&W made it, just as I described above, bad quality, obvious lousey machining mistakes, of which some I corrected myself.

Wanna name the specific problems and the model?

Ive been in law enforcement for years now, and the army many years ago, S&W handguns compared to some other manufacturers are cheap, and not very well made, with obvious mistakes on many of them.

I've not seen that with S&W handguns, but hey what do I know; I only work for one their largest dealers and handle hundreds of them every year. Taurus handguns I've definitely seen QC issues with out of the box.

Ive looked at new S&W ARs a few times, all looked average quality compared to the other companies I mentioned.
After years experience with their other products I sure wounldnt spend hundreds extra on one of their ARs.

First, they aren't hundreds more than DPMS or Bushmaster. They're about $175 more than a DPMS, and equal in price to a Bushmaster. For that extra money you get a MPI & HPT bolt, and a hard chromed barrel. DPMS offers neither as standard, and Bushmaster only the hard chromed barrel as standard. A new HPI & MPT bolt in a complete carrier that been properly staked (something else DPMS never does, and Bushmaster often doesn't do) is $130 from BCM or LMT. So you actually get more for the money with S&W over Bushmaster. By the time you add a quality BCG to a DPMS you've cut the price difference to a negligible amount, and DPMS doesn't even offer a hard chromed barrel on commercial guns. We haven't even gotten into other things like an F height front site base, or M4 feed ramps.

By the way if you go to almost any manufacturer of ARs, you can get milspec, basic models, and models equipped far beyond milspec.

Actually very few companies make semi-auto AR-15s that are otherwise truly Mil Spec. The closest thing I can think of would be a Colt upper on a LMT complete lower.

By comparing anything made by DPMS I see models equipped the same, and produced the same as colt or bushmaster, but an average lower price.

How are you seeing this? DPMS doesn't make a single rifle equipped the anywhere near the same as Colt. Did you just overlook the hard chromed MPI barrels (they're marked as such too) on the Colts? Did you not know to look for the MPI markings on the bolts?

Now one last thing
Before I'm accused of being an AR snob, I do own an Olympic Plinker Plus 20" AR-15. It's a perfectly functional rifle, and it works great as a range and fun gun. However, the build quality is not in the same league as my LMT Defender 2000, the Colt SP1 I traded toward the LMT, nor the CD DM4LE I recently purchased.

As I've said, I work for a pretty large dealer. From what I've seen any major brand AR-15 will work fine for casual users. However, that does not make all AR-15s equal. There are build quality differences. This is where the end user needs to educate himself or herself about what these higher end features do, and decide if they're worth the extra cost for his or her intended use of the rifle.

Edit to add: If those higher end features don't make a difference in your intended use, then by all means buy a DPMS or Olympic. Put the saved money into ammo, or toward a handgun or shotgun to go with your AR.

 

[vanfunk]

Anyone who has picked them up, looked at them, field stripped them, and fired them knows what Im talking about.

No, I'm afraid some of us don't know quite what you are talking about, and some of do have extensive experience with the brands you mention. You place great emphasis on "fit and finish" - can you elaborate on what the phrase means to you? In your previous post you mentioned that an accu-wedge improves accuracy in AR-15s, and I think that comment has left a few of us scratching our heads and wondering if you really know how an AR-15 works.

Bushmaster, DPMS, are a bit better quality than a colt.

Again, please elaborate if possible, with specific reference to the TDP, material specifications, QA/QI processes, and other objective criteria.

By comparing anything made by DPMS I see models equipped the same, and produced the same as colt or bushmaster, but an average lower price.
Take similarly equipped models from each company, compare them, you will see what I mean.

Exactly, when an objective analysis is applied, many substantive differences appear, and they don't favor DPMS or Bushmaster. "Similarly equipped" doesn't mean "identical" when it comes to the quality of the materials used.

The best way to make your mind up is for your own reasons, but compare all of them in person as I did before you make up your mind. Dont go by rumors, or what sounded good to someone on paper, or on their computer screen.

I concur with this sentiment exactly, though I would add that it is important to look at the "numbers" on paper - many of them relate very directly to the quality of the weapons in consideration.

vanfunk

 

[hags]

Did someone post that Bushmaster and DPMS are better quality than Colt?

After reading that I have discounted this entire thread. I'm not a Kool Aid drinker but I wouldn't even put Colt and DPMS in the same sentence when talking about quality.

Try Stag/CMT or LMT.

 

[230RN]

My remarks were either...

- the most snide, snobbish, passive/aggressive comments, just to stir it up a bit

or

- a wonderful display Of ignorance that simpily CANT reflect on any one but that person....

The former is correct, except that it was meant to be aggressive, and was not to stir things up, but to make a point.

And I would substitute "sarcastic" for snide/snobbish --though there's not much difference between the two concepts.

My point was that people argue interminably and passionately over some things when they are actually arguing from different viewpoints. I'm sorry to have to say that again.

I have always found that taking variables to their extremes reveals a lot about a problem. Sometimes from -1 to +1, sometimes from -infinity to + infinity. And sometimes from "5000" rounds per year to 15 rounds in a twenty minute session.

What did I learn?

That at my 25 yard range, the front sight cannot be adjusted properly to obtain 1 inch below point of aim. It is too low. I found, further, that the front sight mounted on this 16" carbine is probably for a 20" rifle. I found out that higher posts are available to cure this problem.

But I also found out (later) that I could remove the front sight detent plunger and put a strong spring under the front sight post so that I could raise it appropriately to match the barrel length without it wobbling around --a quite satisfactory temporary fix.

I found out that the recoil on this machine is negligible.

I found out that the collapsible stock on it was too short for me, since I picked up the right protective wing "instinctively," and that I'd probably have to put a pad on the buttstock if I were shooting it without a coat. I shall test that theory shortly.

I figured out how to bugger up the rear sight so that it will move smoothly and precisely up and down, but I haven't implemented those improvements yet.

I found out that the trigger sucks, but I'm used to crappy triggers on milsurps.

I found out how to strip it, how to not let the upper hinge down on my finger, that the mag release is on the wrong side (for my bum index finger only), but that putting the mag release and bolt release all on one side would be a bad idea.

That's why I got my AR-15. To learn something about that which I knew nothing before.

Fifteen rounds out of a DPMS Panther taught me a lot. Which was why I got it.

Ahhhh, now for the crappy trigger problem.

I'm happy.

 

[taliv]

i thought you were joking

 

[possum]

I found out that the trigger sucks, but I'm used to crappy triggers on milsurps

put some more rounds through it, it will get better.

 

[230RN]

^ I expect so, but that's only one aspect of the potential problem-solving process with the trigger. It's not all that bad anyhow. I'll do some dry firing with it and we'll see if it de-grates and gets a little crisper.

But I do want to learn how the trigger is put together. I understand it's essentially the same as a Garand, but it's been more than 40 years since I mucked with an M1, so I'll have to look at it with my own two baby-blue eyeballs to see what pushes what and when.

Oh. Why only 15 rounds? Because I'm a good shot, have regulated the sights on scores of new rifles, and I only needed three groups to ascertain and diagnose the problem.

Izzat snide enough for everybody?

 

[possum]

Why only 15 rounds? Because I'm a good shot, have regulated the sights on scores of new rifles, and I only needed three groups to ascertain and diagnose the problem.

do what you do!

 

[SHvar]

A recent trip to a large gun dealer.

Which stocks S&W, DPMS, Bushmaster, Remington, and a few other brands, including one model Im very skeptical of, a Vulcan made of plastic, hmmm?
Anyways, the S&W ARs I looked at there were very well equipped, and the prices dropped a bit recently. These 4 rifles were noticeably better than the last 8 I looked at, in fact other than the shinier finish, I didnt realize they were S&W at first. So comparing multiple models in multiple gunshops I would say look closely before purchasing one. These 4 impressed me alot compared to the others. The coating doesnt seem as good as some of the other manufacturers, but if you like it to be a bit shiny, then buy a S&W.
By stripping down all ARs on the shelf (and comparing specs from the parerwork) I can tell you that the prices ranged from $724 to $1137, they were all equipped with chome lined barrels, similar or identical internal parts, but various models ranged from 16-22 inch barrels, various sights, and even some had included holographic sights, tactical 4 rail grips, etc.
If S&W continues to produce models like those 4 they will impress me. Maybe they decided to take a closer look at their quality in more recent history, many of their past made firearms were not very good quality.
I still like the protective coatings on DPMS, bushmaster, and the quality of the finish in comparison. I also like the tightness between the upper and lower recievers on DPMS. Im sorry, but when parts fit together with closer and better tolerances, they operate more accurately, something DPMS is famous for, accuracy. Shooting is believing.
I have no problem with anyones choice of which AR they want, or have. But sometimes the quality is or isnt there.
Personally, my DPMS has been one of the most reliable, and best made firearms purchases I have ever made.

 

[Tarvis]

I found out that the trigger sucks

For a cheap $10 fix, get a JP trigger spring kit with the yellow trigger spring and the copper-colored hammer spring, this will get you down to 6 or so from 9 pounds, maybe less. Using both yellow springs produces a lighter trigger pull, but also produces 1-5 light strikes per 100-200 rounds fired.

If you go the replacement route, there are a plethora of choices. The only replacement trigger I have fired is the JP adjustable, which was superb and cost effective at $120, where many aftermarket AR triggers are $200 or more, with a few being less. I hear RRA makes a good 2 stage trigger, but I haven't shot one myself.

The problem with the AR trigger system is it cams the hammer before it releases it. You could do a little grinding here and there to fix it, but I hope you know how to hard-surface parts. Once you cut through the thin hard surface, you get a few hundred trigger pulls, then it turns to mush as the steel is deformed.

 

[RockyMtnTactical]

DPMS is ok. You can do better though.

 

[tyler500e]

I'm happy with my DPMS with A3 removeable sights

 

[browningguy]

DPMS is a fine brand, I shoot mine in 3 gun with absolutely no problems. And by the way mine has a properly staked gas key if anyone cares.

The last three gun was 5 man teams and all five used my AR since it was the most accurate of the bunch. We ran around 100 rounds each through it in 4 hours and had zero problems.

Now I don't do training courses like a bunch of people apparantly do, my training was provided free (actually they paid me) by Uncle Sam. And I don't worry about my AR being battle ready as I'm not expecting Taliban paratroopers any time soon. I value accuracy, with reliability, and you'll get that with a DPMS. My completely stock DPMS 16" bull barrel upper has several (4-5) thousand rounds through it, the only FTF I've had was due to a bad magazine, no other failures of any kind. I shoot lots of Black Hills in 55-69 gr. loads though it, and quite a lot of the cheap Remington 45 and 50 gr. JHP's.

 

[possum]

Now I don't do training courses like a bunch of people apparantly do, my training was provided free (actually they paid me) by Uncle Sam.

if you were in the big army what uncle sam gives you is not what i would call "training" in any form or fashion and it is worth what it cost.

 

[A square 10]

these threads always entertain me - those who have a favorite just do - if you have had a bad experience so be it , but i guarantee you , you can have a bad day with any rifle so dont be quite so quick to judge ,

i have 4 right now , 2 DPMS upper/lower combos - not one problem ever , 2 DPMS lower / 1 colt M16 upper and 1 dedicated 22cal upper , not one problem with eather ,

ive also built 2 for my son - hes not had any problems with his eather ,

im looking at buying a DPMS 308LR real soon - i expect no problems , thankfully the factory is just down the road so i know i can get service ,
but - thats not the only reason i believe in these , i know there are a lot of these in LE hands that are getting good reveiws , good service , and performing every bit as well as any other ,

pay for whatever name you want - but a proper build , properly maintainted , and opperated with proper ammo will perform up to your expectations and beyond ,

of coarse a nice trigger and sights make it better

 

[SHvar]

For real soldiers training never stops after basic training.

Unless your a REMF
They continue to learn, and refine their skills throughout their career.
Uncle sam is still providing the training, but not under his typical classes or standards when a real soldier trains in the field. Combat is a test, and a learning experience in itself.
Ive known many LE, and individuals who have taken advanced courses with DPMS, Olympic arms, without a single sign of wear, a single mishap, a single malfunction, and continue to use those rifles today, many many thousand rounds later.
I notice that the individuals who have actual experience first hand with DPMS rifles have never had a single problem with them, they rave about their accuracy, the quality, the finish, and many of them buy more DPMS after the first purchase because they like them so much.
They are all equipped with all of the goodies the expensive brands have (the extra tough parts, chrome lined barrels, forged upper and lower recievers, etc etc), dont ask me where anyone gets the old wives tales about them not being equipped this way, and for standard prices.
In fact I questioned a long time DPMS dealer who cannot find one instance of a single DPMS not being equipped with all of the tougher features standard on the more expensive brands, or without properly staked gas keys.
By reading the responces recently Im not the only one experiencing this.

 

[ugaarguy]

They are all equipped with all of the goodies the expensive brands have (the extra tough parts, chrome lined barrels, forged upper and lower recievers, etc etc), dont ask me where anyone gets the old wives tales about them not being equipped this way, and for standard prices.
In fact I questioned a long time DPMS dealer who cannot find one instance of a single DPMS not being equipped with all of the tougher features standard on the more expensive brands, or without properly staked gas keys.

No, DPMS does not equip their commercial rifles in such a manner. The forged uppers & lowers are the only thing that's accurate in what you list. A 4140 chromemoly steel is not the same thing as a 4150 steel barrel with hard chromed bore & chamber. I've owned a DPMS carbine, and I was happy to sell it. DPMS uses crappy parts, and their fit & finish is average at best. They don't come anywhere close to Colt, LMT, and others. I wish I'd taken detailed pictures of the DPMS while I had it. I still have an Olympic because I got into it for the right price, and it's strictly a range gun.

DPMS makes a fine AR-15 for range and casual use. They are not in the same league as Colt, LMT, Charles Daly, S&W, and Sabre, (and Noveske from what I've heard - I've actually thoroughly inspected all the others, and shot half of them) when it comes to defensive carbines. SHvar, I'm glad you're happy with your DPMS, but representing it as a serious defensive carbine when it's not is a disservice to those coming here looking for accurate information.

Let me say that again - DPMS and Olympic make excellent range & casual use AR-15s. In fact, if I wanted to buy a rifle for DCM Service Rifle matches I'd probably get an Olympic SM-1 or SM-1P. Olympic makes some great non-chromed heavy barrels that are consistently very accurate. That's yet another reason I've kept my Plinker Plus 20" model.

 

[possum]

Unless your a REMF

nope, i am an infantry squad leader.

 

[JWarren]

possum wrote:

nope, i am an infantry squad leader.

Amateur.

Come back when you are a Jr. High English Teacher AND a Football Coach.


-- John

 

[possum]

Amateur.

Come back when you are a Jr. High English Teacher AND a Football Coach.


-- John

tell you the truth i can't wait to be out, i think i am gonna try to go to work for the postal service, let my time carry over.

 

[JWarren]

tell you the truth i can't wait to be out, i think i am gonna try to go to work for the postal service, let my time carry over.

Not a bad move. My mother did 30 years and retired from USPS. The retirement is GREAT.

-- John

 

[possum]

Not a bad move. My mother did 30 years and retired from USPS. The retirement is GREAT.

-- John

i bet so! man i can't wait to retire, is that bad of me? i am only 23!

 

[JWarren]

i bet so! man i can't wait to retire, is that bad of me? i am only 23!

You'll be set. You'll still be young when you get to retire AGAIN.


EDIT:

And a .gov job isn't a bad thing to have in this economic environment. I left a 16 year career as a stockbroker to go .gov. I am glad I got ahead of this latest issue. Layoffs suck. I learned that in the .com bubble pop.

-- John

 

[Waldo Pepper]

25+ years, 3 wars, all continent's except Antarctica.

Used M-1, BAR, M-14, M-16, M-60, 30 & 50 MG's and various hand guns. I live in the US and normally only fear a bugler or stray dog, not invading armies, so I don't own a full AR in 5.56 caliber and 5 or 6 thousand rounds of ammo. Sorry but that is for the far right paranoid as far as I am concerned, but that is ok its a free country.

I often hear someone on these and other types of forums talking about the money and getting out after fist or second enlistment, and I have one thing to say. It is not about money, but duty honor and country.

What do I have for HD is a Mossy 500 20 gage, FNH 5n7 with one 30 and two 20 round magazines and a AR-57 upper that uses the P90 magazine on a DPMS lower. I can hit a man at 100 yards with either, but I am not going to war with the guns at 63 either. If an army comes over the hill I will just wave and throw flowers or hide in my bed as required.

Its bed time, good night kids.