are they as accurate and well built as the Colt,Smith and Wesson and Olympic arms ar's i saw one at my local gun shop for only 600 and it got me thinking because it was lower in price it was not as good as the others. does anyone have any info on this matter.
dpms ar15's
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againstthagrane
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dpms is definitely as nice as S&W if not better. my gas key is staked better than any S&W i've seen. if you believe guns and ammo dpms is more accurate than the m&p as well. my friend's dad has the mp15t and it is definitely NOT worth the 1500 he paid. you can get the same dpms for around 1200 or if you really want to spend 1500 you can get an lmt or colt.
if M&Ps were about $250 cheaper across the board they would be good deals. you're paying a lot for the name.
if M&Ps were about $250 cheaper across the board they would be good deals. you're paying a lot for the name.
ugaarguy
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Well I only handle and inspect 50 plus AR-15s from various manufacturers every year at work. How many DPMS and S&W AR-15s do you inspect in a year?
I believe the reports of consistent accuracy from my customers. If you want to talk accuracy in a budget priced AR-15 look at Olympic. If you want to talk accuracy in a factory stainless match barrel gun look at S&W M&P-15 PC rifles. Thompson/Center Arms (owned by S&W) is making all of the barrels for the M&P-15s.
If he paid $1500 for any M&P-15 other than a Performance Center gun the dealer ripped him off.
Really? DPMS doesn't even offer chrome lined barrels, nor HPT/MPI bolts which are both standard on the M&P-15. There are many other small features that are standard on the M&P-15 which aren't even available on the DPMS AP4. So, actually you can't even add options to a DPMS build to get a rifle equivalent to a standard configuration M&P-15.
You can get an LMT for $1300 to $1400.
No, you're paying for proper assembly and higher quality internals.
45B@cav
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Dpms produces a quality product that is reliable and affordable. I am so tired of people bashing them because they are less expensive. I am a small arms repairmen for the army so I think I am qualified to voice my oppinion on this subject. I have carried M4's for years and my DPMS can do anything my Colt can do as good if not better. Frankly speaking I have never been Impressed with Colt at all. On 90% of my builds that I have done as a civilian I have used DPMS lowers and have never had a single issue with any product I have ever purchased from them. +1 on the stake job, I've seen much more pricey bolt carriers that I had to restake the bolt keys on. I've had range time with a S&W and yes it is a good product but it did'nt do anything that a DPMS could'nt do. When you pull the trigger and it goes bang, that is what it was designed to do. Accuracy is as good as any other stock AR or M16, M4 I've ever shot and thats all you can ask for in any rifle or carbine. I believe that pretty much all of the manufactuerers out there make pretty good products so why pay more for a name. I feel confident enough with DPMS that I would not hessitate to carry one in combat.
possum
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i agree, op you should use the search function there are alot of dpms ar threads that have been around lately.
this is one of those classic threads, and one of the main reason i have the signiture at the bottom!
againstthagrane
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if you are a gun dealer and you're trying to use that to prove that you know more about a certain product than me because of it, then you are being comical.
i handle my own dpms daily and i've handled and inspected 3 or 4 M&Ps. dpms's have a better finish, better stake job, and similar quality all around. except you can get the same dpms for $250 less. dpms offers chrome and titanium nitride lined bolts and carrier groups that S&W does not.
chrome lined chambers are not necessary for a self defense rifle that spends it's life in a closet. if you live in a salty or rain forest like atmosphere then that is a different story. chrome lined chambers actually affect accuracy in a negative way while allowing for slightly better reliability and corrosion resistance in rifles that aren't ideally taken care of. if you clean and lube your rifle you don't need the chrome lining.
really? people never lie about accuracy...i'm sure guns and ammo did though. you're right.
the guy that runs box of truth website has a dpms sweet 16 that shot something like a .25inch group with good ammo. no chrome. just a lowly stock dpms with a scope.
$1400 plus tax equals $1515.50 since you want to be a stickler. i said 1500 you say 1400 what did you hope to prove?
unless the op is planning on a full auto conversion he's paying for nothing.
uh huh...and not the name. i've run 300 rounds through mine without a cleaning and no hiccups. to me that is enough to be trusted in a self defense scenario witch would likely happen at my home and where environmental variables would not be a factor. not anymore so than another rifle anyways.
according to smith and wesson he got $270 off of retail. check the site below for confirmation
.http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/...angId=-1&parent_category_rn=33803&isFirearm=Y
and for the record i think $1500 is a rip off for ANY smith and wesson ar.
to the op, just go with whatever brand you can get a deal on, if you ever find a feature on another rifle that you can't live without, find the part and install it yourself. that's the beauty of the modular rifle. i bought a "piece of crap" dpms ap4 and installed a midwest industries free float rail, magpul ctr, millet zoom dot on a GG&G cant. mount, cav arms buis, and miad grip and trigger guard.
find a rifle with a properly staked gas key and a high quality barrel and you're good to go. some people cling to their favorite brand and trash anything else. i don't think m&ps are bad rifles i just think they're over priced and if you handle one and compare it to other brands you'll agree
againstthagrane
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why is he stuck with the ap4? dmps offers about 60 models in all different shapes sizes and calibers. i especially like their sass model.
innerpiece
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well...
my DPMS Sportical is all Id hoped it would be so far.. my Brother inlaw recomended it to me, and Hes been Navy SpecOps for a good long time..
come see my thread, pics and discussion, and you can see what it does to a car
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=400904
Ive got alot in store for this nice lil gun!
Personally, I dont think you would be dissapointed if you bought one.
ip.
my DPMS Sportical is all Id hoped it would be so far.. my Brother inlaw recomended it to me, and Hes been Navy SpecOps for a good long time..
come see my thread, pics and discussion, and you can see what it does to a car
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=400904
Ive got alot in store for this nice lil gun!
Personally, I dont think you would be dissapointed if you bought one.
ip.
BoneDigger
Member
I just purchased a Panther Light 16 and have not shot it yet, but the fit and finish seems good. I paid right at $650 for it and aside from wanting a new front sight and maybe a light mount, I can't imagine wanting anything more.
I did a lot of research on these before buying and the concensus, from actual owners, is that they are a good and accurate gun.
I gather customer service is pretty good too.
Todd
I did a lot of research on these before buying and the concensus, from actual owners, is that they are a good and accurate gun.
I gather customer service is pretty good too.
Todd
ugaarguy
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I haven't bashed DPMS. They make a good rifle. I'm tired of people saying DPMS is just as good as brands that use higher quality components.
Then would you care to tell us which brands and models of civilian M4 carbines come as close to the TDP as a military issue Colt?
If you run a semi-auto hard the parts are still a worthwhile investment.
You got me there. I'd forgotten about the M&P-15T. Of course, you've got to factor in the $300 worth of Troy front and rear BUIS, and the $175 worth of quad rail. Strip all that off and you're close to $1000, which is a fair price for the quality of the bbl & internals you get with a S&W.
Anyway, you can keep sitting here and saying DPMS is just as good as S&W, but that won't change the facts. S&W uses higher quality components and builds their rifles as well as or better than DPMS.
browningguy
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You'll hear a lot from the mil spec wannabe crowd. Personally my DPMS upper is excellent, a very good shooter used in several three gun events and thousands of rounds plinking and varminting. I don't want chrome lined bores by the way, general feeling is they are not as accurate. As least I don't see very many of them winning matches.
I've shot M16's and AR15's since my Navy days in the 70's, and also was never impressed with Colt accuracy, even new out of the box mil-spec guns simply aren't made for precision shooting that I do.
Now if you have a plan to carry your own AR into battle that may be a different story. For that I wouldn't mind mil-spec, it's designed for rugged use and minimal maintenance.
I've shot M16's and AR15's since my Navy days in the 70's, and also was never impressed with Colt accuracy, even new out of the box mil-spec guns simply aren't made for precision shooting that I do.
Now if you have a plan to carry your own AR into battle that may be a different story. For that I wouldn't mind mil-spec, it's designed for rugged use and minimal maintenance.
I am neutral in this argument. I don't care which is better I just want the product that I buy to be worth what I paid for it, but I have seen lots of opinions and no facts.
Does anyone have any PROOF of any claims they are making?
Can anyone show proof that the parts to a S&W are inferior to a DPMS, or the other way around?
I am building an AR starting with DPMS upper and lower, after that I am building everything with the best parts I can find. I am using DPMS because of cost, great reviews, and the fact that I have seen no proof that the stripped receivers of any of the other brands offer any SIGNIFICANT increase in quality for the added cost. Same reason I buy a Bushnell Elite 3200 over a Leupold VXII. Sure it may not be as nice but it makes me happy and does everything I want in the price I can afford, and has a great reputation.
Does anyone have any PROOF of any claims they are making?
Can anyone show proof that the parts to a S&W are inferior to a DPMS, or the other way around?
I am building an AR starting with DPMS upper and lower, after that I am building everything with the best parts I can find. I am using DPMS because of cost, great reviews, and the fact that I have seen no proof that the stripped receivers of any of the other brands offer any SIGNIFICANT increase in quality for the added cost. Same reason I buy a Bushnell Elite 3200 over a Leupold VXII. Sure it may not be as nice but it makes me happy and does everything I want in the price I can afford, and has a great reputation.
atlanticfire
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If I where you I would just try to get whatever you can at this point, things are selling out pretty fast.
againstthagrane
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i totally agree that they build them, as well.
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ugaarguy
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Yes, go pull an M&P-15 bolt and you'll see that it's marked "MP" for the magnetic particle testing. You'll see that the S&W barrels are as being chromed, which they are.
DPMS doesn't offer hard chromed barrels, and they don't offer HPT / MPI bolts. Those are more expensive options. Whether or not you want them on your rifle is up to you.
Again, DPMS makes a great casual use rifle. S&W happens to build a great rifle with more expensive internals intended for harder use. Pay for what you want.
The way things are going that's very good advice.
LOL - very nice
DPMS bolts are MP tested in lots or batches.
DPMS does offer chrome-lined barrels for certain models. Chrome-lining is not something to brag about. If your rifle isn't reliable enough that it won't operate without one, then...whatever. If you're complaint about an AR is that it doesn't have a CL barrel just because yours does....whatever.
You're either uninformed about DPMS, or someone who intentionally doesn't like being bothered with facts. Chromed and TiN coated bolt carriers are an option...MP is standard.
If by "harder use" do you mean that you don't like to clean your rifle...ever? What harder use are you going to put one through that the other can't (as you feel) do? What remotely possible scenario do you see that one will make it with flying colors and the other fail miserably? Everything mechanical will fail at some point, and it usually has to do with, in the case of moving metal parts, lube or lack of and not the metal itself.
As far as facts go, with regard to DPMS, you have been completely wrong and do not have your "facts" straight. You also seem to put a premium on some things that have not relative importance, such as a CL barrel. Ok, so you have a CLB, I have a SS that is significantly more accurate. Maybe if you didn't have to shoot 3-4 times as many rounds to get the same shot placement....oh, nevermind.
I could not verify that after about an hour of looking. S&W did not mention that, neither did about 10 magazine articles I looked through that reviewed it. If it is true then cool, but it seems more reasonable that it is S&W marking their own bolt, MP-M&P. If I am wrong, I learned something new.
DPMS barrels are also chrome lined. Is there a difference in the how that is done, or the quality of the chrome or manufacturing?
I also found that Stag might be making the receivers.
This is from DPMS FAQ page:
Are your barrels chrome-lined?
DPMS offers chrome-lined barrels in the following configurations as a factory option:
20" Heavy Barrel
16" Heavy Barrel
16" M4 Contoured Barrel
14.5" M4 Contoured Barrel
11.5" Short Barrel
7" Short Barrel
Cost of this upgrade is $32.95. As a note ALL 14.5", 11.5" and 7" barrels have chrome-lined bores and chambers.
Also their 5.56 NATO barrels are CL.
Here is a link to their website that explains their build.
http://dpmsinc.com/forum/posts.aspx?postID=63
As far as being able to CL, you are correct. Saying that they don't come CL is wrong. And since the factory barrels are significantly more accurate than a CL barrel, why in the world would you ruin a good rifle and pay $32.95 doing it?
Are your barrels chrome-lined?
DPMS offers chrome-lined barrels in the following configurations as a factory option:
20" Heavy Barrel
16" Heavy Barrel
16" M4 Contoured Barrel
14.5" M4 Contoured Barrel
11.5" Short Barrel
7" Short Barrel
Cost of this upgrade is $32.95. As a note ALL 14.5", 11.5" and 7" barrels have chrome-lined bores and chambers.
Also their 5.56 NATO barrels are CL.
Here is a link to their website that explains their build.
http://dpmsinc.com/forum/posts.aspx?postID=63
As far as being able to CL, you are correct. Saying that they don't come CL is wrong. And since the factory barrels are significantly more accurate than a CL barrel, why in the world would you ruin a good rifle and pay $32.95 doing it?
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possum
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your standards are pretty low.
Texasred
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Are S&W still the same as an evenly priced Stag or is that different now.
I neve knew until just now that Smiths were MPI. Does this mean that they are pretty much Mil-Spec?
What are the Mil-Specs now? Colt, LMT, Sabre-Def, White Oak, Noveske, Charles Daly and what else?
I neve knew until just now that Smiths were MPI. Does this mean that they are pretty much Mil-Spec?
What are the Mil-Specs now? Colt, LMT, Sabre-Def, White Oak, Noveske, Charles Daly and what else?
FrankRochester
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Colt and FN are the only guns that are made to "Mil-Spec". They have access to the military documents. I'm not sure if its true, but I've heard people say that LMT does as well. The rest are trying to replicate what is being done. Some try to go above and beyond, such as Noveske. DPMS is no where near a 'Mil-spec" rifle. And for the original poster. You can get a LMT for around $1,100. Buy the gun in 2 pieces and you can avoid the excise tax for a complete firearm. When you get it, put the upper on the lower and there you go! $437 for complete lower with SOPMOD stock,$675 for complete upper comes to $1,112. For that money you get a top notch rifle. A Noveske is about the only thing you'll find that's better. But at a much higher price.
againstthagrane
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maybe, but i don't envision having to fire over 300 rounds in "self defense"
journeyman
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I have to agree with 45B and his post. I spent 20 years as a 45B/45K in the Army and after working on thousands of Colt M-16s I was also not impressed. I own a Colt AR-15, a few DPMS products and a Del-Ton and I like them all just about the same. If I ever decide that I need something that is dead certain reliable I will be picking up one of my AKs instead of one of my AR rifles anyways.
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