Dr. Laura on the VT massacre

[FeebMaster]

lol. You Starship Troopers guys need to read more Heinlein.

Seems to me that we're against people telling us they they know what's best for us.

Think again. There are plenty of nanny statists on the pro-gun side. At least they claim to be on the pro-gun side.

 

[ExtremeDooty]

I think there should be a distinction made between what we owe our government and what we owe our country. I pay enough in taxes every year to know that, if anything, the government owes me.

What we owe our country and our way of life is a different matter. I see it slowly slipping away. And in the coming years, Islamist fanatics are going to bring the fight to American streets. The military and the police are not going to be able to protect us everywhere at all times.

If we don't have some sort of mandatory service to teach the next generation basic self defense, armed and unarmed, and situational awareness, where will they learn it? College? I think that question has already been answered.

 

[Soybomb]

If we don't have some sort of mandatory service to teach the next generation basic self defense, armed and unarmed, and situational awareness, where will they learn it? College? I think that question has already been answered.

Why not learn it on their own if they are so inclined? Thats what I've done. Back to the nanny government....

This whole thread reminds of the terrible kennedy quote I hate so much that seems so unamerican.

ask not what your country can do for you - ask what you can do for your country

 

[Autolycus]

I agree with Soybomb on this one. Forcing people into service does not seem to be condusive to freedom. Just because guns are involved does not mean that everyone will start voting pro-gun.

What if we did pass a law that says "no military = no vote"? How many of you are not veterans? Guess what no vote.

Did anyone actually think about the cost of this program and the magnitude of logistics it would take? You complain about taxes now...

And I seem to here everyone complaining about how kids lack discipline and are crazy nowadays, so in the 60's and 70's they were not? No crazy people then? Nobody did anything crazy?

What happens now is the media blows everything out of proportion. The fact is that the internet allows us to know what is going on in another part of the country or world instantly. So it seems like every little incident gets made into a national one.

But making conscription does not necessarily help our cause. If anything it may hurt it. If the government can justify taking our freedom for a few years it can easily continue to justify it. Military service is good for us, right? What if they say guns are bad for us? What then?

Would you get to choose the branch you serve in? Would the peace corps be a choice?

And what of people who are disqualified for military duty? Or what about people who are consciencous objectors? Pacifists? Or cant train to kill someone beause of religious objections? What then? Why should they be forced to serve when it is against their beliefs? Does this not violate their rights? The Constitution and Bill of Rights still applies here in the United States of America, right?

Robert Heinlein was an early pioneer of Libertarianism and no way believed in conscription. "Starship Troopers" is probably his best known book but its just a book not his personal beliefs.

 

[RealGun]

Dr. Laura mentions "two years of military service". That is now another anti-draft thread, a topic that gets closed when standing on its own.

I know Dr. Laura well enough to think what she really means is socialized parenting (by her rules) with a bonus of learning to shoot.

 

[Elza]

rhinov: I could see some kind of draft if and only if the country was in a situation where it may be totally overpowered by an outside force. Not before that.

There is a small flaw in your logic: it would take waaayy too long. You don’t put an army together over night. Following the attack on Pearl Harbor it took a good year before our military was anywhere near going to war. If the Japs had wanted to they could have gone to the Mississippi river and never broken a sweat. It just wasn’t (fortunately for us) part of their game plan. Our current military is only marginally better that it was prior to WW II.

 

[Art Eatman]

TBL, if we followed some system like Arfin's, combined with your general view, we wouldn't have a bunch of guys stressed out by long-term overseas deployments.

That's almost a separate subject, though, considering the "peace dividend" drawdown of our active military. IMO, way too much of our present burden is borned by the National Guard/Reserve types, and by second- and third-deployment troops. We're too cheesy to budget the money for personnel. Pretty much like cities and police force budgets, seems like.

I don't follow the thoughts of those who equate some minimal training period with any long-term service such as two years or more. Nor do I see why it would be assumed that weapons training would be no more than at present, when weapons training seems to be the thrust of Dr. Laura's idea. IOW, less emphasis on marching, and more on shooting.

I dunno. I got my "Greetings!" from Ike in late 1953. Probably a good thing, given how much of a screwed up guy I was. They gave me a socially-acceptable way to drop out. Darned sure made me grow up. So, looking back, these "involuntary servitude" arguments have little merit to me. Other folks think differently, and that's fine; it's just that their arguments are irrelevant to me. Most folks spend too much time looking for the bad side of anything, though...

, Art

 

[Jerry Morris]

I got called up for the draft. I lucked out and got a 1Y deferment. That is medical for those not familiar. Bad hearing.

Now, I can shoot. I can shoot well. But, I did miss out on a lot. Tactical discipline is not my forte. I have read Small Unit Tactics, but reading is not the same as doing. If the Militia is ever called up, I want to be in a more professional outfit. Militias generally get pretty badly mauled.

Point is, Dr Laura is right about one thing. There were a whole lot of sheep standing around doing nothing, but getting ready to bleed out, when they should have been looking for opportunity. When the 9 is empty, risk the .22 and go for the shooter. Three jocks should have nailed him easily. When his hand was jammed in a door jamb, I would have armed myself with HIS gun! People were dying there. They actually did not try to grab the GUN!!!! One, or two hard lunges at the door and a jerking twist and the gun is coming out of his hand.

Dr. Laura may be going a little too far. But she is not really wrong. The sheep need some horns.

Jerry

 

[Kentak]

It's one thing to decide you want to devote a few years of your life to military service, either out of patriotism, the challenge, the need to "find yourself," a desire to be part of a great tradition, to become a professional soldier, or to answer a specific call to arms, such the the WOT.

It's a very different thing to say you have a duty to serve when your government wants cannon fodder for whatever reason it deems important to it's political goals. If you've joined up, well, you made a commitment to serve and be at the govt's beck and call. So, when Clinton sends you to stop genocide in the Balkans, you go.

How many joined up just for that mission? How would you feel if your kid was drafted to put down tribal massacre in Africa because some UN-loving administration wanted to do "our" part in one-world policing?

Draft = Slavery. Does your life belong to you, or your government?

K

 

[Autolycus]

Exactly. When Bush sends US soldiers to die for oil, dont you feel like that is a waste? Or going to Afhgnistan when the hijackers were from Saudi Arabia, our supposed ally in the region?

Sorry but we dont need a draft so we can send our boys to go fight in some useless place like Iraq.

 

[TEX]

I believe compulsory military service might be a good idea if it consisted of 1 year of training and then 3 years of Active Reserve or National Guard type duty, and another 6 year of inactive reserve. Total 10-year obligation. For those that objected for religious reasons, etc. Every effort should be made to find a job within the military that would suit them or even something in the public service arena. In exchange for this service the government would pay for 2 years of college or trade school, and make available loans at a very low interest rate for further education. This would accomplish two things; first at any given time we would be able to field a huge military force in a dire emergency and this would be a big problem for any potential enemy to content with, secondly, it would perhaps reduce unemployment because the schooling would increase their chances of having employable skills. An added benefit would be that everyone would be under a watchful eye for a time and potential full blown nut cases would likely be detected. During the time in the active or inactive reserve anyone would wanted to keep their weapon at home, could, and be given a monthly ammo allowance and access to a supervised range and instruction. I also think that perhaps voting right should be attached to this service and that a national level CHL program could be worked into all this.

 

[obmax1212]

Mandatory military service probably wouldn't hurt, but it is still compulsory. Besides the fact that a draft army usually is poor quality in comparison to an all volunteer army, and even ignoring the cost of funding such a venture, mandatory service defies the idea of liberty. However, I have always thought that there should be two classes: residents and citizens. Both enjoy the same rights with the exception of citizens who can vote. In order to vote you must enroll in some type of military training. I think that at the very least these individuals would advocate for war far more carefully than the average joe.

 

[gunsmith]

I like her show a lot

I think the underlying point of the good doctor was that people need to learn to fight back.
The whole do not resist notion seems to be failing

 

[Jerry Morris]

Sorry but we dont need a draft so we can send our boys to go fight in some useless place like Iraq.

Whether you like it,or not, we have a draft. It is only in Limbo. Awaiting time for reactivation. The draft never was abolished. It still is in effect.

Ever since the War Between the States, drafts have been instituted. It is a part of American life. Just like paying taxes, it is a duty, deny this all you wish. It speaks volumes.

Jerry

 

[Thin Black Line]

Just like paying taxes, it is a duty, deny this all you wish. It speaks volumes.

The flip side of this is how far does the government take things and how har
would military force be used beyond the intentions of the American people.
If we were "paying taxes" as originally intended, it would be a 1% federal tax
on earnings above $62,000.

Some of the posters here are simply concerned about how they would be used
while in government service. And during a draft politics certainly become involved
and people can find a way out of that service while others bear more of the
burden. This is why we went to the all volunteer military, but it's now breaking
down due to repeated deployments for the same people --people who have
families and other obligations. This is why I had to say goodbye to the reserves.

 

[JJY]

What??! You actually believe yourself to be free?

You may want to think about this a bit more. Things like: if you don't pay the car tax, who gets the car? If you don't pay the land tax, who gets the land? If you want to buy a gun, who do you have to ask? If you wish to get married, who grants permission? If you want to drive around in a car, who do you ask? Who watches your bank account for "odd transactions"? If you wish to speak about a politician two months befoore an election, who do you call to get permission to do so?

This is true ... but not a reason to give up as some have interpreted it ... but rather a reason to act.

 

[ZeSpectre]

I realize mandatory service is an extremely touchy issue but I really do wish something (civil training or something) had been around when I graduated from high school. I was under ENORMOUS pressure at the time to choose a college and attend and, to be blunt, I wasn't quite ready. As a result I screwed around for almost two years before I hit the maturity level to focus and dig in. I could have really used that extra time (and discipline to be honest).

Another thought is that if everyone were required to train in firearms I'd bet the anti stance would fall apart pretty damn quick because all the misinformation would be exposed for what it is.

Also I agree with this statement by extremedooty

If we don't have some sort of mandatory service to teach the next generation basic self defense, armed and unarmed, and situational awareness, where will they learn it? College? I think that question has already been answered.

Just a thought.

 

[Autolycus]

How many of the draft supporters would be eligible to be drafted now? I would also ask why you all dont go reenlist or enlist if you have no prior service?

 

[Ian]

I'm sorry for you guys who were in bad shape when they were of draftable age, but don't project that onto everyone else. I'm still of prime military age, and I've got my life going very well, thank you. I in no way need the feds to come in and get me killed in some 3rd world craphole for my own good.

 

[kfranz]

ZeSpectre, why should the rest of us be forced to fund your "service" while you mature enough to move on with your life? Not to mention that whole "Peace Corps" thing that's out there

 

[ZeSpectre]

kfranz,
No need to lean into a personal attack. We're exchanging ideas here.

 

[Pilgrim]

So it would be a government of the military and not a government of the people? I'll pass.

In the Heinlein model, the ability to vote was not granted until government service was completed. Veterans could vote, no one else.

Government service was not just military service. For those unable to be soldiers, something was found for the volunteer to do.

How many of the draft supporters would be eligible to be drafted now?

I'm a little old for military service now, but I would be happy to volunteer to provide armed security service for a local school.

Pilgrim

 

[kfranz]

No need to lean into a personal attack. We're exchanging ideas here.

ZeSpectre, I intended no personal attack.

I think that taxpayer funded "maturity" programs are an improper use of my money. I don't know when you graduated from High School, but there are (and have been for some time) a variety of programs other than the military that offer service opportunities for young people, the Peace Corps perhaps being the most well known.

It sounds to me like you were too immature (and I know the feeling having lived it myself) to take advantage of the opportunities that were available at the time.

 

[ZeSpectre]

ZeSpectre, I intended no personal attack.

I think that taxpayer funded "maturity" programs are an improper use of my money. I don't know when you graduated from High School, but there are (and have been for some time) a variety of programs other than the military that offer service opportunities for young people, the Peace Corps perhaps being the most well known.

It sounds to me like you were too immature (and I know the feeling having lived it myself) to take advantage of the opportunities that were available at the time.

Okay, I probably misread the tone of your reply. Sorry if I overreacted.

 

[MarshallDodge]

When I read and posted Dr. Laura's statement I did not see it as a some of you that thought it was aimed at mandatory military service. I thought that her idea to use the military to turn sheeple into someone that can at least defend themself was a step in the right direction. Should it be mandatory? Probably not but the people that our society is turning out could use some discipline and training in self defense.

Some of you have posted some pretty selfish posts in my opinion, posts that come across to me that you enjoy the freedom of this country but would be unwilling to fight for it.

Personally, I wish I had joined the military as a young man. While I was in college I took a test at the Marine recruiting center and they wanted me pretty bad. My father talked me out of it. If I had been recruited I probably would have fought in Desert Storm.