Dr. Laura on the VT massacre

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Gee, perhaps if military recruiters were not so disdained on collage campuses this grand sceme of military(like) training would be accepted. I remember my dad who went to Colorado A&M (before it became Colorado State) had to be in the ROTC becuase it was a state school. He also had to perform forest fire duty becuase of his degree commitments to that school. In short, rather that forcing broad based conscription, the incentive was affordable tuition.

Like any other solution having its roots in requiring others to do something that would make us feel safer, (Nanny State?) this (forced conscription)ignores the objections of others. The incentive should usually be borne from the hearts of men (and women). Please let's not forget that the whole problem was the primary choice of the nasty killer, who, for lack of caring of his reasons, I blame entirely. Any reactive measures that seek prevent such rampages from occuring in the future cannot ignore the persistance of his kind of evil. I, for one, do not want my liberties or the liberties defined by his actions. Military service is a good thing, but especially when from the conviction one's own concience.

As for some remark two pages back that says that the Japaneese would have made it to the Missippi, and that the present military is akin to the one prior to WWII; IMO, the Japaneese would have never made it past Los Angeles county, and today's military is vastly more powerful, smarter, better equiped, and better trained, and more motivated than any military prior WWII. The lack of resolve at the highest levels is the limiting factor.
 
...I just don't see forced service to give people "discipline" as something the framers seemed like they'd be in to.

Whoa there big fella. I didn't say that it would be a way to instill discipline, although it would. My argument is that it would be good for the country. It would bolster our military and provide job training and college money for many people who wouldn't otherwise get it.

And, as I said above, the peaceniks get a tour in a hospital or the peace corps.

When someone enters the military, the oath is to defend the Constitution, not the government. When Mr. Bush leaves the White House, a soldier's/sailor's/airman's/marine's loyalty does not disappear.
 
this started out with Dr. Laura's views and some notions about some amount of the old UMT and Basic Training and suchlike.

It's wandered off into a full-bore draft and two years' worth of service and all manner of other stuff. Way OT.

I'm not gonna close it, having contributed much earlier on.

But I suggest it be left to quiver and die. "The Draft", per se, is a dead horse that ain't gonna come back to life. BTDT.

Art
 
A small infringement on freedom still seems to be an infringement. How free is a nation where its citizens owe its government part of their life just because it wants it?
It can be thought of in two ways: (a) a commitment to a government; or, (b) merely an extension of school and a commitment to ourselves.

I fully realize the infringement aspect. Sure, it is, to a kid who doesn't have the real-world depth of experience or understanding to appreciate the life-long value such training will have. The point is, as a People, the USA is soft, inexperienced, untutored in the real world; it is a country of merchants and clerks minus the seasoning that simpler living provided in centuries past. This 2yr commitment is about getting that back. Forcibly, sure. But getting it back with a minimum of fuss, at a time when many (most?) kids need formal guidance and direction. I'm not for a draft of any sort. I'm not for a 6-yr or 8-yr type commitment that's normal in the military. However, I'm all for a 2yr training stint, fully military though it be.

As for the caliber of training, there isn't anything comparable.

It seems like more "I know whats best for you" thinking that gun owners seem to dislike when it comes from the other side. In the end we don't owe our government anything, it exists to serve us.
Schooling serves all of us. Considered as a 2yr extension on formal basic education, it's just one more item added to the curriculum. Real-world, in the streets, possibly on the battlefield ... it's the first "course" where the rubber meets the road, in terms of practical, life-or-death experience that will last a lifetime. It's the one part of a person's training that can't be found in a book.

Owe something to the government? Nah. We owe it to ourselves and our future. 'Cause what we're doing right now surely isn't working.
 
Soybomb said:
Isn't the central discussion in this thread that kids aren't being raised right and we need the government to do it for us?
+1

Those of you who are proposing we have compulsory military training for the reason of "shaping up" our youth are approaching this problem from the wrong direction. There may be other reasons for serving our country, but this isn't one of them.
 
Compulsory things by government tend to work out poorly. They tend to involve being forced to kill those who don't need killing or, conversely, being sent into harm's way without ammunition.
 
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Owe something to the government? Nah. We owe it to ourselves and our future. 'Cause what we're doing right now surely isn't working.

This is the kind of well-wishing strings and ribbon packaging that slavery
and statism comes in these days. Beware. This kind of thinking is faulty.

It flies in the face of natural libertarian perspectives and attempts to
shift responsibility to the state. Which as we all know is folly.
 
Part of the whole purpose behind the 2nd amendment was from the framers natural disdain for a standing army. And now we want not only a standing army

Of course we don't need a standing army. Just build the SSBNs and B-2 bombers and park them with a couple of very comprehensive manuals in the driver's seats, and first militia guys there just take off in them and go to war, picking up the fine points as you go...
 
Doctor Laura is Jewish. Just pointing out a little obvious bias she may have for the way Israel does things. I like what she says; mostly, I just find her impractical but her moral compass is clear and true.

Compulsary service here in the States, though?
I don't know about that.

On the one hand, freedom isn't free, and everyone should (to borrow a phrase from our socialistas) "contribute" to securing it. Or at the very least, stay the F! outta the way of those who have the nads to go forth and make sure the rest of us are free!


That said; I always go back to my standard quote when some young person asks my advice about joining the service, "I served so you could be free to choose for youself."
 
Universal military service seems to work well in many places. It is no more 'involuntary servitude' than the hours I spent last year to earn the money to pay my taxes.

If that line of reasoning is correct, it looks like an argument for abolishing the income tax--not reinstituting the draft.
 
It can be thought of in two ways: (a) a commitment to a government; or, (b) merely an extension of school and a commitment to ourselves.

So then the government would force us to have a commitment to ourselves.(?) Oh how nice! Really, I think I'll pass, Im doing fine on my own thanks.:)
 
The point is, as a People, the USA is soft, inexperienced, untutored in the real world; it is a country of merchants and clerks minus the seasoning that simpler living provided in centuries past.

This is almost word-for-word exactly what the Kaiser thought about us in the runup to WWI and what Hitler thought about us in the runup to WWII. Not to mention the Spanish, the Japanese, and pretty much everybody else we've fought.

On top of all the other problems, the cost of a universal two year service system would run to the trillions of dollars. In addition, it would remove all the young from the ranks of productive taxpayers and put them two years behind in making money. This is why the only nations that have such programs also have incredibly nasty income taxes.
 
If our military was like the Swiss (100% defensive) and not an imperialist one I would support the idea. Till then hell no.
 
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