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Draw Or Don't Draw?

Discussion in 'Strategies, Tactics, and Training' started by Plan2Live, Nov 14, 2022.

  1. Plan2Live

    Plan2Live Member

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    In this scenario a concealed carrying bystander shoots and kills armed robber but the armed robber shoots and kills the clerk in response. Here is a link to the article.

    https://news.yahoo.com/chicago-concealed-carry-permit-holder-003950101.html

    So my question, that I hope gets more replies than my comment below, is; If you were there, would you draw?

    In my mind, this is one of the reasons I support concealed carry with a permit and training. Back when I taught the CWP class we would discuss the concept that sometimes an armed robbery is just an armed robbery and maybe you shouldn't draw. With no training requirement, how many concealed carriers will seek out training and ever spend time mulling over a scenario like this?
     
    scaatylobo likes this.
  2. trackskippy

    trackskippy Member

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    Everything is a matter of timing and whats going on. Just because you can, doesnt necessarily mean you should.

    As the boy from Active Self Protection always says, "you need to wait your turn" when it comes to things.
     
    gobsauce, mljdeckard, ms6852 and 2 others like this.
  3. ClicheBro

    ClicheBro member

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    There was a time when I would've waited to see, but not anymore.
     
    citizenconn and Armored farmer like this.
  4. trackskippy

    trackskippy Member

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    In the above case, he probably should have waited for a better shot, so the clerk wasnt in the line of fire.

    You need to try and take in the big picture as best you can, and not get tunnel vision on just one thing. If youre lucky too, he will be alone and give you the opportunity.

    If hes just taking the money, let him take the money. If it looks like it might be going in another direction, then you have to go with the flow. And whos to say whats what, from second to second?

    Hopefully, youve been studying up and working on some things like this in practice and are up to the challenge.
     
    Proud Rebel likes this.
  5. FL-NC

    FL-NC Member

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    If you don't draw, you will have no option to fire. I know that for sure.
     
  6. DeepSouth

    DeepSouth Random Guy

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    If I thought someone was about to be killed, I might attempt to intervene depending on the circumstances…
    if I didn’t, or wasn’t sure, I certainly would not.


    Mandatory Training forced (and enforced) by the government is a separate issue, and I’m opposed to it.
     
    armoredman and Rudolph31 like this.
  7. bearcreek

    bearcreek Member

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    What makes you think that the minimal training required by some states makes any difference? I've never heard of a basic CHL class that taught folks how to read criminal's minds.
     
    Night Rider likes this.
  8. trackskippy

    trackskippy Member

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    Or go beyond verifying you know how to shoot beyond the very basics, let alone draw, maneuver, and fire.

    If you havent already, you really should mosey on over to ASP and watch some of the videos and breakdowns of what went on, and what went wrong. They have a ton of them, including stuff just like this, and they are actual occurrences of real people and not just theory and speculation.

    https://www.youtube.com/c/ActiveSelfProtection/videos
     
    Kleanbore likes this.
  9. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    How many state CCW training courses address the subject in any depth?
     
    fastbolt and Night Rider like this.
  10. GEM

    GEM Moderator Emeritus

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    Both the TX and NYS courses have stressed avoidance and that you are not a LEO.
     
    fastbolt likes this.
  11. Night Rider

    Night Rider Member

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    I don't know if I saw the wrong video or what. I read the story but the video I saw was some black guy in a red hoodie beating up a woman in the entrance of what looked like an apartment building.

    I have exactly zero information to go on so this answer is going to be very generic.

    Number one, if I can get out of the situation without firing a shot that is the best outcome.

    I thought of a bunch of different things I could say but here's the truth of it unless I feel like I have absolutely no other recourse than to draw and fire I'm not going to draw and fire
     
  12. Howland937

    Howland937 Member

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    I guess the question I'd have is:
    Does it matter if it's a convenience store clerk being robbed? Woman pushing a stroller? Someone trying to kidnap the baby in the stroller? Drawing a gun on someone who's already holding a gun can go bad in too many ways for too many people. Better be entirely out of options and willing to deal with any negative outcome, because the clerk in the OP could have been your child that you were hoping to protect.
     
    luzyfuerza and Speedo66 like this.
  13. trackskippy

    trackskippy Member

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    Thats the whole point of "wait your turn". Dont be in a rush to get yourself or others killed. You arent likely to get to set the rate and the timing that things happen, and you will most likely just have to just go with the flow, but you can still be in planning mode and continue processing "your ambush", should you need to.

    If you can get your gun out and ready on the sly without being seen, all the better, but at that point, you better be ready and able to quickly/instantly present it and shoot it quickly and accurately, without hesitation. If its seen, times up and game on, and you better be shooting first. Action beats reaction.

    When you watch a lot of these sorts of videos, you see a lot of people are in la la land as far as whats going on around them and a lot of times never see it coming, or even notice it happening around them, if they arent directly involved or the target.

    Its bad enough if you see it coming and are at least somewhat aware and ready, but if you have to start out of the blue with absolutely no idea as to whats going on, who is who and where around you, youre in a really bad spot and the level of difficulty just shot way up. Add to that, never having had done something similar previously in practice what you may be about to have to do, only amps it up even more.

    One thing that's often discussed in some of those videos is the possibilities of draw times with whats going on at the moment, and "2 second draw" from how youre carrying it, is the "slow" time. Anything past that, its probably not going to be good. Thinking youre going to draw on an already drawn and pointed in on you is basically suicide. And brings you back to "wait your turn". :)
     
  14. bearcreek

    bearcreek Member

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    None, that I'm aware of. There isn't a single state in the US that mandates enough training to get a person to where they should be to both competently and legally fight with a handgun.
     
  15. bearcreek

    bearcreek Member

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    I saw the same. Video didn't seem to fit the article.
     
  16. citizenconn

    citizenconn Member

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    That is a fine sentiment until they notice you and decide you are the next crime victim.
     
  17. Scrapiron45

    Scrapiron45 Member

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    Mabye more to the story, article says police recovered 3 guns from the scene.
     
  18. Archie

    Archie Member

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    Defense in real life is an art, not a science. Bummer folks, but defense is part of life. That's life, folks.
     
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  19. Matthew Temkin

    Matthew Temkin Member

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    Question—-was the CCW holder in any immediate danger?
    When he shot the robber was it the clerk or the CCW holder who was hit by the BG’s return fire?
    It sounds like a situation where I would try to withdraw if possible and let things play out.
     
    Blue Jays and Rexster like this.
  20. Rexster

    Rexster Member

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    Shooting a robber, who is pointing a gun at his victim, is not normally a best practice, even for most police officers. It is preferable to wait until the robber’s gun is no longer pointed at the victim, before intervening, and, even then, it may well be best practice to let the robber start making his get-away, before intervening. It is true that some few robbers will seriously harm or kill a compliant victim, regardless, but, most will not. If defending a third party, I would normally opt to play the odds, and wait for the robber to leave. No longer being a sworn peace officer, and with physical limitations increasingly affecting my ability to fight, I would probably not try to prevent the robber’s escape. “Holding” a robber, pending the arrival of police, is fraught with peril. (Actually, with the DA that is currently in office, I would not want to cause ANY harm to a felon, in this county.)

    Just because one can, does not not mean that one should.

    To totally shut-down a human being, so that his index finger cannot pull a trigger, requires MUCH more accuracy that most of us are prepared to deliver, with our carry guns. “Head Shot” is not enough accuracy; it is necessary to hit the relatively tiny Medulla Oblongata. From any angle except behind the head/neck, taking such a shot requires using a bullet that will, absolutely, maintain a straight course through much of the attacker’s head. So, realistically, if I want to intervene, in an armed robbery, I am obligated to first get the robber’s attention diverted from the robbery complainant.

    This Wikipedia page shows an animation of the Medulla Oblongata:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medulla_oblongata

    Obviously, it is possible that an armed robber could decide to continue the incident by turning his/her attention to other victims, including me.
     
  21. Atavar

    Atavar Member

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    The courses I have attended all stress the same things.
    1. Your firearm is there to prevent death to you and yours.
    2. You are not LEO. Don’t act like LEO.
    3. Don’t try to enforce law if your life is not threatened. Call 911.
    4. The instant you pull the trigger your life will change, and not for the better.
    5. Have a lawyer on speed dial.

    One class said things that made much sense..
    Hide, far away is better.
    Call 911
    Your call *may* allow LEO to get there in time. Don’t assume someone else is calling.
    While on the phone describe the situation and the bad guys.
    Tell 911 if anyone is injured in any way.
    Describe yourself and any known good guys.
    Describe any weapons including yours.
    Flee.
    Do not post on social media before, during or after until a judge declares you blameless.
    Don’t talk to reporters.
     
  22. Atavar

    Atavar Member

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    CCW courses are *not* combat training
     
    thirty-eight likes this.
  23. Night Rider

    Night Rider Member

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    I'm seeing other news reports of this incident that state that there was no third party CHP holder. They say the clerk and the robber had it out and both ended up dead.

    However this report says three

     
  24. shafter

    shafter Member

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    I'm not going to make up my mind on a course of action until the situation presents itself. If I think the robber will take what he wants without shooting then I'm probably not going to start the fight. If for whatever reason I feel that won't happen then I'll do what I have to do. For me, I will engage when I absolutely must, not just when legal criteria are met.
     
  25. trackskippy

    trackskippy Member

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    I think its best to run through things like this in your head, and/or in practice, before youre faced with it for real.

    At least you will have a somewhat predetermined course of action in your head that you arent just winging in the moment.

    Nothing is ever going to be perfect or the same, but the more you go over and educate yourself, the more likely you will have something of a base to draw on.
     
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