Dudedog Christmas PIF journey

[vaalpens]

Everybody must be saying, not again! Yes, it is one of those threads where I share the results achieved from some PIF bullets I received.

Yesterday I received a welcome surprise from Santadog (I mean Dudedog) in the form of a SFRB filled with bullets and brass. This was a very unexpected pleasant surprise and I just want to thank Dudedog again for thinking of others during this time of the season. I was actually starting to run low on bullets, and for some reason Dudedog had some insight information regarding my bullet inventory.

The package I received contained the following:

• Tumbled 357sig range brass
• ACME 9mm 122gr FP coated bullets
• RMR 9mm 100gr RN hardcore thick plated bullets
• RMR 9mm 124gr target HP thick plated bullets
• RMR 9mm 124gr RN hardcore thick plated bullets
• Xtreme 9mm 100gr RNFP plated bullets

The plan for this thread is to document my process of deciding how to load these bullets, the results of each load, and maybe also some of the process I go through getting these bullets to their final destination, downrange.

First things first. Following are some pictures depicting the journey of the bullets (this is a journey thread), and the bullets and brass.

 

[vaalpens]

Since I received 357sig brass in the PIF, the plan is to try and load these bullets in 357sig if at all possible, but default to 9mm if it cannot be loaded in 357sig.

The first step I took was to measure and weight the bullets, and then calculate if it will be a possible fit in 357sig:

ACME 9mm 122gr FP coated bullets

These are coated cast bullets, so they should be able to handle at least around 1300fps.
Measurements showed that if I load them to 1.135" COL, then there will be around a .03" gap between the start of the ogive and the case mouth, so it could work.
This bullet will get he plunk, setback and cycle test to determine if I will load them in 357sig.​

RMR 9mm 100gr RN hardcore thick plated bullets

These bullets are rated to 1400fps and could work in 357sig.
Even though they are RN bullets, they have a very short nose and ny calculation shows that I should be able to load them to a COL of 1.135", and still have the start of the ogive about .02" above the case mouth.
This bullet will get he plunk, setback and cycle test to determine if I will load them in 357sig.​

RMR 9mm 124gr target HP thick plated bullets

I have loaded this bullet before in 357sig, so I will just verify my previous load data to determine if it is still a candidate for 357sig.​

RMR 9mm 124gr RN hardcore thick plated bullets

RN bullets normally don't work in 357sig but the 1400fps rating is good enough for 357sig.
Measuring the bullet showed that I will have to load the to at least a COL of around 1.180" to have the start of the ogive outside the case mouth. This bullet will probably be loaded in 9mm.​

Xtreme 9mm 100gr RNFP plated bullets

These are not the concave base bullets, so as far as I know they are only rated to 1200fps. This will not work in 357sig, so they will probably be loaded in 9mm.​

Next steps will be to prepare the 357sig cases for reloading, and put these bullets through the plunk, setback and cycle test. Once I have made the final decision on the cartridge for each bullet, only then will I decide on the powder/bullet combinations.

 

[kcofohio]

vaalpens, your postings are great! Please keep up the good work.

A note on Dudedog. Him and I exchanged some bullets earlier this year. It was to be a PIF. But he sent me a variety of bullets that exceeded what I originally sent him. (This is were we need a hats off smilie) And now I just received a Christmas card from him! Wow, talk about a High Roader of high roaders!

 

[vaalpens]

vaalpens, your postings are great! Please keep up the good work.

A note on Dudedog. Him and I exchanged some bullets earlier this year. It was to be a PIF. But he sent me a variety of bullets that exceeded what I originally sent him. (This is were we need a hats off smilie) And now I just received a Christmas card from him! Wow, talk about a High Roader of high roaders!

kcofohio, thank for the kind words. I concur, Dudedog definitely embodies what THR is all about.

 

[vaalpens]

Since I already identified the ACME FP and RMR 100gr RN bullets as possible 357sig candidates I decided there was no need to wait, so I went ahead and created some dummy rounds and submitted them to a plunk, cycle, setback and bathroom scale test.

I already measured the bullets to determine a possible COL, but also included the following test to show that the start of the ogive is outside the case mouth. The pictures are not great, but you can see that the ACME bullet has a bigger gap between the ogive and the mouth of the case.







Following are the results from the plunk through bathroom scale test:

ACME 9mm 122gr FP cast coated:
Plunk test: Pass
Original COL: 1.1355"
Cycle 1: 1.1350"
Cycle 2: 1.1350"
Cycle 3: 1.1350"
Cycle 4: 1.1350"
Bathroom Scale: 19.5lbs held for about 5 seconds before it registered.
COL after bathroom scale test: 1.1350"

This bullet passed all tests and should be safe to load in 357sig.

RMR 9mm 100gr RN hardcore thick plating:
Plunk test: Pass
Original COL: 1.1335"
Cycle 1: 1.1330"
Cycle 2: 1.1320"
Cycle 3: 1.1320"
Cycle 4: 1.1320"
Bathroom Scale: 19.2lbs held for about 5 seconds before it registered.
COL after bathroom scale test: 1.1320"

This bullet passed all tests and should be safe to load in 357sig.

The next step for these bullets will be to identify at least 4 test loads each for evaluation using a chrono and testing for accuracy at 15 yards.

 

[clearcut]

DudeDog is the CHAMPION !!! PIF dude !

CC

 

[vaalpens]

I am starting to make some progress on deciding on the loads I will be testing, but will post the information once it is finalized.

Included in the PIF was some 35sig brass. Normally I would just add these to the rest of my brass to be processed, but decided to handle them separately this time and use them as much as I can when creating the 357sig loads. Following is an overview of the case prep process I have and will follow for these range brass:

1) Decap all range brass using a Lee universal decapper.
2) Normally I would wash them at this time, but since they have already been tumbled by Dudedog, I just skipped the step and wiped any dust of them.
3) Since this is range brass, debulging was the next step. I use the Lee 40s&w FCD with crimp sleeve and adjustment screw removed, in addition with a push through punch. I use Unique lube during debulging. Following are some pictures showing the FCD with internals removed and the debulging process.



4) The next step I performed was resizing the body using a Lee 40S&W resizer. This step is not necessary, but I have always been doing it, so no need to change.
5) Next step was resizing the neck and body again using the 357sig resizer. With this step I make sure I have some Unique lube around the neck. The body still has some lube from the debulging step.
6) Next step was to wash the cases with hot water, some Dawn and a bit of lemishine for about 2 hours. This removes the lube.

7) Next step is the drying phase
8) After drying the cases are tumbled
9) After tumbling the cases are sorted by headstamp
10) For 357sig cases, I will sort the cases by length since a uniform length help to get a consistent expanding and crimping. Neck tension is at a premium.
11) Last step will be to brush the inside and clean the primer pocket and flash hole.

The cases will be ready for reloading once the above steps have been completed. These cases will probably be supplemented with other brass just to ensure I have enough of the same length cases for my loads.

 

[jell-dog]

Yes, Santadog (Dudedog) sent me a Christmas PIF too
A true example of generosity by an outstanding member of The HIGH ROAD

 

[vaalpens]

I have started with my load planning and is currently in the evaluation phase. I normally come up with a quick decision, then let it simmer for a while just to make sure I have some time to think about each load again before finalizing the direction. Following are the loads I am currently planning for these bullets:


ACME 9mm 122gr FP coated bullets:

These bullets are similar shape and seating depth to some of the plated bullets I have loaded, so for now I am planning on using some of my plated load data. For this one I am ctually going back to some Unique plinking loads I started with. Should be a good starting point.

357sig
COL: 1.135"
ACME, 122gr, FPNLG, Unique, 6.5gr, 6.7gr, 6.9gr, 7.1gr, SBPRSP​

RMR 9mm 100gr RN hardcore thick plated bullets:

I have no reload experience in 357sig with this bullet, so i just went with Hodgdon data averaging out the 90gr and 115gr load data for 357sig.

357sig
COL: 1.135"
ACME, 122gr, FPNLG, CFEpistol, 7.7gr, 7.9gr, 8.1gr, 8.3gr, SBPRSP​

RMR 9mm 124gr target HP thick plated bullets:

I have tried these before in 357sig with some spotty results. So I decided to go a different route and load it in 9mm using PowerPistol. I have a good range in PowerPistol I normally work in, so the results will be interesting.

9mm
COL: 1.060"
RMR, 124gr, HMHPRR, PowerPistol, 5.0gr, 5.2gr, 5.4gr, 5.6gr, SBPRSP​

RMR 9mm 124gr RN hardcore thick plated bullets:

This bullet won't work in 357sig for me, so I am going the 9mm route. I decided on BE-86 since I have had some good results with plated bullets with similar seating depth and charge range.

9mm
COL: 1.150"
RMR, 124gr, HMRNP, BE86, 5.3gr, 5.4gr, 5.5gr, 5.6gr, SBPRSP​

Xtreme 9mm 100gr RNFP plated bullets:

I have loaded some RMR bullets of the same shape and weight with good results using Autocomp. For this load I am using the same load data and will be comparing the RMR results with these.

9mm
COL: 1.010"
Xtreme, 100gr, RNFP, AutoComp, 5.5gr, 5.6gr, 5.7gr, 5.8gr, SBPRSP​

As always any comments will be appreciated.

 

[jell-dog]

Looking forward to seeing your results vaalpens

 

[vaalpens]

Looking forward to seeing your results vaalpens

Thanks jell-dog. The ACME results will be interesting. It will be first time for me shooting a cast bullet in 357sig. The shape of the bullet is perfect with the longer bearing surface, but the results will tell if it could become a lower cost plinking bullet.

 

[vaalpens]

The Dudedog 357sig Speer brass has been cleaned and sorted by length. Most were .8600" or .8610" and I was able to get about 20 per length with a few taken from +- .001" to get to the 20 per length. These will be used for the 357sig loads. The remainder of the brass went into the normal rotation.

Following is a picture of the expanded and primed with S&B primers brass, and the dummy rounds I used to test the fit:

 

[Dudedog]

Thanks everyone for the kind words!
I received a surprise from vaalpens the other day.
Some interesting looking Acme SWCs for .38/.357 and some beautiful Sig V Crowns for 9mm
He also tossed in some .45 brass for me. THANKS! vaalpens, most

Looking forward to you results I always enjoy your posts.
Still haven't decided what to do with the V Crowns. I picked up a lb of W572 to try the other day so I am thinking about loading them with a couple different charges of 572.
Will post results when I have them.

Bet those RMR 100s in .357 Sig will be little Zingers...somewhere between1500-1600 zing....
I didn't know if there would be enough bullet there to work in the Sig, but it looks like they will work so hopefully you can have fun with them.
Side note: Lyman 50 lists a 95gr in .357 Sig Power Pistol Start 9.5gr 1511fps Max 10.6gr 1665 fps

Side note #2: I have been really happy with S+B SP primers, (I loose track, 10-12k used so far) killer deal when Cabelas has them on sale for $22/K and Cablas hazmat is only $20, then you catch them $5 shipping deal...
Also
Merry Christmas to all you THR members out there.
DD

 

[vaalpens]

Thanks Dudedog!

I am not going to try and push the RMR's into the 1500's, since they are still plated. I think these are rated to 1400fps, but I'm not sure since I don't see them listed anymore.

This will be the first time for me just testing with S&B primers. Hopefully I'll be able to find some more of them since it saves me about $10 per 1000.

Merry Christmas to all THR members.

 

[Dudedog]

Cablas usually has the S+B SPs (out now) I think non sale prices is $25/K (still about $5 cheaper than some) but the have them on sale for ~$22 quite often.
As I recall RMR site showed the RNs were ok to 1500, they were fine for me in 9mm in the high 1300s (almost 1400) (nice supersonic crack)
If you PMed Longdayjake (jake from RMR) he could probably let you know for sure.

 

[vaalpens]

Cablas usually has the S+B SPs (out now) I think non sale prices is $25/K (still about $5 cheaper than some) but the have them on sale for ~$22 quite often.
As I recall RMR site showed the RNs were ok to 1500, they were fine for me in 9mm in the high 1300s (almost 1400) (nice supersonic crack)
If you PMed Longdayjake (jake from RMR) he could probably let you know for sure.

Thanks Dudedog. I will have to make more of an effort to get to Cabelas to save some money with primers. I'll shoot an email to RMR.

 

[vaalpens]

Yes, I know it is Christmas, but I had some me time so I started loading some of these bullets. I am still going to try and make some time tomorrow to test them, but time will tell.

 

[vaalpens]

Two of the bullets loaded in 9mm have been tested today.

The Xtreme 100gr RNFP seems very accurate, but did start to spread out as the velocities got closer to 1200fps. These bullets are rated as 1200fps, so I assume that is the reason why some accuracy was lost at higher velocity. I think it was a good decision to load these in 9mm, and keeping the velocities to below 1200fps.

Load evaluation was done at 15 yards from a rest.

SIG SP2022, 9mm, 3.9"
COL: 1.010"
Xtreme, 100gr, RNFP, AutoComp, 5.5gr, SBPRSP
Average: 1093
ES: 14
SD: 5.7
Force: 265
PF: 109
Velocities: 1097, 1092, 1090, 1102, 1088
Grouping @ 15yards: 1.06"


SIG SP2022, 9mm, 3.9"
COL: 1.010"
Xtreme, 100gr, RNFP, AutoComp, 5.6gr, SBPRSP
Average: 1117
ES: 52
SD: 21.4
Force: 277
PF: 111
Velocities: 1114, 1082, 1134, 1129, 1130
Grouping @ 15yards: 1.13"

SIG SP2022, 9mm, 3.9"
COL: 1.010"
Xtreme, 100gr, RNFP, AutoComp, 5.7gr, SBPRSP
Average: 1151
ES: 36
SD: 15.3
Force: 294
PF: 115
Velocities: 1156, 1133, 1162, 1169, 1139
Grouping @ 15yards: 2.38" with one flyer (4 shot grouping .82")


SIG SP2022, 9mm, 3.9"
COL: 1.010"
Xtreme, 100gr, RNFP, AutoComp, 5.8gr, SBPRSP
Average: 1162
ES: 17
SD: 6.1
Force: 300
PF: 116
Velocities: 1162, 1171, 1164, 1161, 1154
Grouping @ 15yards: 2.04"

The target RMR 124gr thick plated bullets seemed to perform better as velocity picked up. I have 5 more to load of these and will definitely up the charge with my final load to see how they perform. Alway fun shooting Power Pistol loads.

SIG SP2022, 9mm, 3.9"
COL: 1.060"
RMR, 124gr, HMHPRR, PowerPistol, 5.0gr, SBPRSP
Average: 972
ES: 33
SD: 12.9
Force: 260
PF: 120
Velocities: 984, 971, 951, 981, 974
Grouping @ 15yards: 2.37"

SIG SP2022, 9mm, 3.9"
COL: 1.060"
RMR, 124gr, HMHPRR, PowerPistol, 5.2gr, SBPRSP
Average: 1001
ES: 11
SD: 4.7
Force: 276
PF: 124
Velocities: 995, 1002, 1005, 1006, 998
Grouping @ 15yards: 1.86"

SIG SP2022, 9mm, 3.9"
COL: 1.060"
RMR, 124gr, HMHPRR, PowerPistol, 5.4gr, SBPRSP
Average: 1032
ES: 38
SD: 14.8
Force: 293
PF: 127
Velocities: 1024, 1036, 1049, 1040, 1011
Grouping @ 15yards: 2.31"

SIG SP2022, 9mm, 3.9"
COL: 1.060"
RMR, 124gr, HMHPRR, PowerPistol, 5.6gr, SBPRSP
Average: 1053
ES: 18
SD: 9.1
Force: 305
PF: 130
Velocities: 1049, 1046, 1063, 1046, 1064
Grouping @ 15yards: 1.20"

 

[kcofohio]

vaalpens, looks good! Keep it up.

I have never shot handgun from a rest, but your shots look good to my unqualified eyes.

Thanks for the updates! Looks like fun!

 

[vaalpens]

vaalpens, looks good! Keep it up.

I have never shot handgun from a rest, but your shots look good to my unqualified eyes.

Thanks for the updates! Looks like fun!

kcofohio, thanks for the comments. I always accept a grouping of less than 1.5" at 15yards as accurate enough for me. The sig's have combat sights and basically cover the 3 11/16 x 2 13/16 rectangle at 15 yards, plus the target is out of focus for me due to some old eyes. Even from a rest I get some movement, so I am happy with these results. This is not on par with what bgm and other members can shoot, but it is good for my capabilities.

 

[Dudedog]

The Xtreme 100gr RNFPs shot well for me in 9mm also, hope you had some fun with them. Looks like the 5.7gr Autocomp load worked well for you. Nice shooting!
I played around loading them really light in 9mm and my recollection is I was able to get down around 950fps and still get function but that was borderline.
I haven't had a chance to laod and test what you sent me yet but plan on trying to load them tonight/tomorrow. Thanks again for the PIF.

 

[vaalpens]

The Xtreme 100gr RNFPs shot well for me in 9mm also, hope you had some fun with them. Looks like the 5.7gr Autocomp load worked well for you. Nice shooting!
I played around loading them really light in 9mm and my recollection is I was able to get down around 950fps and still get function but that was borderline.
I haven't had a chance to laod and test what you sent me yet but plan on trying to load them tonight/tomorrow. Thanks again for the PIF.

Dudedog, thanks for the response, and thanks again for the PIF. It really gave me something different to work on over the Holidays, and something to evaluate on Monday 12/26.

The loads I tested also functioned without any issue, but I did realize that the recoil was very light with the 100gr bullets. The ejection distance was also very close.

 

[vaalpens]

The 357sig loads have been planned, created and are now ready to be tested. It will probably be a week or so before I will have time to test them, but the loads and targets are ready.

Thanks again to Dudedog for the PIF. It is always nice to get something completely new to get those reloading creative juices flowing again. These will be 3 firsts for me in 357sig. First 100gr bullet. First coated cast bullet. First round nose bullet.



The 4 rounds on the left are some V-Crowns I always tag along when I go shoot just to test the performance once in a while.

 

[vaalpens]

I have been able to test the RMR 100gr plated and ACME 122gr coated bullets today, but had some issues with my chrono again. I tested some other loads, started with the RMR's, but then halfway through the RMR's the chrono went bad. It started giving me readings around 2100fpd for everything I tested. Obviously this is not correct and it seems I will have to send the chrono back again.

Following are the results:

The RMR's performed very well, but the pressure was definitely not where it should be. I could see this on the ejection distance and the scorching on the outside of the cases.

357sig, P229, 3.9"
COL: 1.135"
RMR, 100gr, HMRNP, CFEpistol, 7.8gr, SBPRSP
Average: 1230
ES: 61
SD: 22.9
Force: 336
PF: 123
Velocities: 1232, 1227, 1206, 1218, 1267
Grouping @ 15yards: 1.36"


357sig, P229, 3.9"
COL: 1.135"
RMR, 100gr, HMRNP, CFEpistol, 8gr, SBPRSP
Average: 1270
ES: 62
SD: 22.8
Force: 358
PF: 127
Velocities: 1277, 1260, 1240, 1274, 1302
Grouping @ 15yards: 1.35"

357sig, P229, 3.9"
COL: 1.135"
RMR, 100gr, HMRNP, CFEpistol, 8.2gr, SBPRSP
**No chrono data**
Grouping @ 15yards: .90"


357sig, P229, 3.9"
COL: 1.135"
**No chrono data**
RMR, 100gr, HMRNP, CFEpistol, 8.4gr, SBPRSP
Grouping @ 15yards: 1.97"

I was surprised by the accuracy of the coated cast bullets, and I ejection distance and feel was very similar to some of my other 357sig loads. There was no tumbling of any bullets, so I think these coated bullets performed as well as plated bullets I have used before. It is just a pity that I don't have valid chrono data.

357sig, P229, 3.9"
COL: 1.135"
ACME, 122gr, FPNLG, Unique, 6.5gr, SBPRSP
**No chrono data**
Grouping @ 15yards: 2.24" (1.27" and 1 flyer)

357sig, P229, 3.9"
COL: 1.135"
ACME, 122gr, FPNLG, Unique, 6.7gr, SBPRSP
**No chrono data**
Grouping @ 15yards: 1.60"

357sig, P229, 3.9"
COL: 1.135"
ACME, 122gr, FPNLG, Unique, 6.9gr, SBPRSP
**No chrono data**
Grouping @ 15yards: 1.36"

 

[vaalpens]

I was finally able to test the RMR 124gr RN bullets this weekend, and also chrono'd one ACME and RMR 100gr load, since last time I was not able to get any good chrono data.

For now I have only listed the chrono results and grouping, but will include some of the scanned targets when ready.

The following two loads were done with the remaining bullets I had to at least get some chrono results since with the last shooting I had issues with my chrono. I included the targets even though the groupings weren't great, but for each load I had to use one pulled bullet. Normally I don't load pulled bullets in 357sig due to the neck tension issue, but for these I did to have 5 rounds per load. It could be thatthe one flyer each was due to the pulled bullet, but who knows.

357sig, P229, 3.9"
COL: 1.135"
ACME, 122gr, FPNLG, Unique, 7gr, SBPRSP
Average: 1241
ES: 47
SD: 19.3
Force: 417
PF: 151
Velocities: 1228, 1251, 1271, 1224, 1235
Grouping @ 15yard: 2.48" (1.47" + 1 flyer)



357sig, P229, 3.9"
COL: 1.135"
RMR, 100gr, HMRNP, CFEpistol, 8.2gr, SBPRSP
Average: 1335
ES: 46
SD: 17.7
Force: 396
PF: 133
Velocities: 1345, 1341, 1355, 1309, 1328
Grouping @ 15yard: 2.01" (1.12" + 1 flyer)


It seems that the .2gr powder difference between Power Pistol and BE86 compensates for the slower PowerPistol powder, even though Power Pistol was still running a little bit slower than BE-86. I'm not sure if it was my shooting this weekend, but my POI with the RN RMR's were a little higher than normal, but no big deal.

9mm, SP2022, 3.9"
COL: 1.135"
RMR, 124gr, HMRNP, BE86, 5.2gr, SBPRSP
Average: 1009
ES: 38
SD: 14.8
Force: 280
PF: 125
Velocities: 986, 1024, 1008, 1011, 1020
Grouping @ 15yard: 1.95"

9mm, SP2022, 3.9"
COL: 1.135"
RMR, 124gr, HMRNP, BE86, 5.4gr, SBPRSP
Average: 1031
ES: 22
SD: 9.3
Force: 293
PF: 127
Velocities: 1024, 1029, 1036, 1046, 1024
Grouping @ 15yard: 1.66" (.98" + 1 flyer)

9mm, SP2022, 3.9"
COL: 1.135"
RMR, 124gr, HMRNP, BE86, 5.6gr, SBPRSP
Average: 1069
ES: 13
SD: 5.1
Force: 315
PF: 132
Velocities: 1073, 1069, 1061, 1069, 1074
Grouping @ 15yard: 2.42"

9mm, SP2022, 3.9"
COL: 1.135"
RMR, 124gr, HMRNP, BE86, 5.8gr, SBPRSP
Average: 1092
ES: 14
SD: 5.6
Force: 328
PF: 135
Velocities: 1095, 1086, 1094, 1088, 1100
Grouping @ 15yard: 2.01"

9mm, SP2022, 3.9"
COL: 1.135"
RMR, 124gr, HMRNP, PowerPistol, 5.4gr, SBPRSP
Average: 991
ES: 25
SD: 10.9
Force: 270
PF: 122
Velocities: 998, 995, 981, 979, 1004
Grouping @ 15yard: 1.79"

The next two load were my best groupings. It seems that Power Pistol worked better for me with this bullet.

9mm, SP2022, 3.9"
COL: 1.135"
RMR, 124gr, HMRNP, PowerPistol, 5.6gr, SBPRSP
Average: 1030
ES: 28
SD: 12.3
Force: 292
PF: 127
Velocities: 1036, 1022, 1041, 1040, 1013
Grouping @ 15yard: 1.19"


9mm, SP2022, 3.9"
COL: 1.135"
RMR, 124gr, HMRNP, PowerPistol, 5.8gr, SBPRSP
Average: 1066
ES: 24
SD: 9.8
Force: 313
PF: 132
Velocities: 1059, 1064, 1058, 1070, 1082
Grouping @ 15yard: 1.20"

9mm, SP2022, 3.9"
COL: 1.135"
RMR, 124gr, HMRNP, PowerPistol, 6gr, SBPRSP
Average: 1080
ES: 33
SD: 12.1
Force: 321
PF: 133
Velocities: 1077, 1100, 1077, 1080, 1067
Grouping @ 15yard: 1.63"