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Dummy that will cycle the slide

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by baryon, Sep 22, 2008.

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  1. baryon

    baryon Member

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    Hi,

    I was wondering if it is possible to create a dummy cartridge by removing the bullet? Would it cycle the slide? In a SD situation may be it can be used to fire a warning shot and also cycle the slide. Is this feasible?

    thanks
     
  2. LtShortcut

    LtShortcut Member

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    No. Don't do it. Buy a blank firing pistol and some blanks to go in it.

    Again, don't fool around with what you are thinking.
     
  3. Justin

    Justin Moderator Staff Member

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    Blanks will not cycle a weapon unless they have been modified with a blank adapter. If you just pull the bullet out of the case, it won't work as the powder will simply spill everywhere. Blanks are actually crimped shut to keep this from happening.

    If you aren't willing to use lethal force to defend yourself, you need to look into an alternative method such as pepper spray or a taser.
     
  4. baryon

    baryon Member

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    Of course it needs to be filled in with something light weight(wax?) so that the powder doesn't spills out.

    My question is basically whether this is technically feasible not from legal or tactical angles.
     
  5. rcmodel

    rcmodel Member in memoriam

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    NO. Not technically feasible.
    As already noted, the only way a blank can develop enough pressure to cycle an action is by reducing the hole in the bore with a "Blank Adapter".

    Without the recoil & pressure of an actual energy developing load, the action will not cycle.


    Further it is bad from both a tactical & legal standpoint to be popping blanks at another human.

    Blanks or not, if you fire a gun at someone, it is considered firing a gun at someone by the law.

    And a lot of experienced gang-bangers would just respond by shooting you several times with real bullets!

    rcmodel
     
  6. Aran

    Aran member

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    Forget the experienced gang-bangers, I imagine anyone armed would probably at least consider return fire.
     
  7. kingpin008

    kingpin008 Member

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    Other have covered the technical aspect, so let me repeat the legal/tactical bit:

    IF YOU NEED A WARNING SHOT, YOU SHOULD NOT BE SHOOTING AT SOMEONE/SOMETHING TO BEGIN WITH.

    Sorry for the caps-lock, but it's that important. Warning shots are a bad thing. If you're in enough danger to have to use a gun, you'd better use it to put the threat down - and that means you -shoot the threat- not -warn it away-. The time for warnings should have come before you were forced to pull the gun. Period.
     
  8. General Geoff

    General Geoff Member

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    Also note that blanks can be very harmful if not fatal to the person the gun is being aimed at out to at least a few feet.
     
  9. SDC

    SDC Member

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    The only reasonably close thing to something like this that I've seen has been in conjunction with one of the "laser"type training simulators; these used cartridges of the same dimensions as a loaded round, but were pressurized with compressed air that was released when the firing-pin hit the "primer"; the air also caused a laser unit that plugged the forward half of a drop-in barrel to fire a laser pulse at the screen showing a scenario. The recoil impulse caused by the air was just enough to cycle the gun (I saw SIGs, Berettas, and MP-5s modified to work this way), and the ejected cartridges could easily be re-pressurized to be re-used. From a non-training standpoint, it's a bad idea; if someone is doing something worth shooting them, shoot them.
     
  10. bdickens

    bdickens Member

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    Aaaaaaggggghhhh!!!!!!! :eek:
     
  11. Boris

    Boris member

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    If you truly need a warning shot for whatever reason, then just miss on purpose. Normally just pulling the gun is enough of a warning. If they don't run from that then they won't run period.
    If however it is necessary for you to put someone down in a hurry, having to shoot away that warning shot to get to the real ammo will just waste time and can end badly.
     
  12. wyocarp

    wyocarp Member

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    I have done this. I had a guy coming at me with his hand behind his back. It was dark and I told him to stop. I forcefully repeated my request for him to stop numerous times. Me pulling my gun didn't stop him. When I fired a round and trained my gun on him again and demanded that he stop, he did. The next round would have been not have been a warning and I guess he believed me when I told him so.
     
  13. kingpin008

    kingpin008 Member

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    That's great that it worked for you - still doesn't mean it's a good idea. If nothing else, it leaves you with one (or more, if you decide to take more than one warning shot) less round to use to preserve your life.

    I don't know about you, but I'm not too proud to admit that in a situation where I may have to pull and use a gun, I won't be in possession of my zen-like target-blasting ability I have on the range. Rounds will likely miss, or they will probably need follow-ups to be effective. Warning shots waste that ability, with negligible benefit.

    And if I may ask - where were you when this situation occurred? Where did your warning shot go, if not into the badguy? That's yet one more reason warning shots aren't a good idea - when shooting a badguy, you have a definite target and backstop - his/her body. While you may miss in the process and strike another target, at least you were firing in immediate defense of your life. With a warning shot, you have committed yourself to taking the time to deliberately miss that target which essentially robs you of that verified target/backstop.

    And before you say "oh, I shot into the air or down at the ground." - neither of those are safe or acceptable backstops. Bullets shot into the air keep going, and can potentially strike a target downrange, just like a bullet shot at the ground which ricochet's can.

    Warning shots = bad idea.
     
  14. Boris

    Boris member

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    Also people continuing to bother you even when faced with a gun is more the exception than the norm, unless they have a gun themselves. In which case, start shooting.
     
  15. wyocarp

    wyocarp Member

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    kingpin, I couldn't disagree more.

    I don't practice to miss. Since my hobby is calling animals, bears are my favorite, I've had a lot of instances where I get to practice quick split second shots that need to be on target.

    I could have shot the guy and I think that my life would have had more problems than the problem of only having 5 rounds left in my revolver. If I can't stop someone with rounds of .357 mag, then I'll just have to resort to scrapping it out with a bloody guy.
     
  16. Tacbandit

    Tacbandit Member

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    "I was wondering if it is possible to create a dummy cartridge by removing the bullet? Would it cycle the slide? In a SD situation may be it can be used to fire a warning shot and also cycle the slide. Is this feasible?"



    Don't go there...do the right thing, get yourself set up right
     
  17. KelVarnson

    KelVarnson Member

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    I don't see how someone, regardless of experience, can say that a warning shot is always a bad idea. That's quite a generalization.
     
  18. .cheese.

    .cheese. Member

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    Technically, it IS possible to create a dummy cartridge - but what you're really making is a blank. No, it will not cycle the slide though. Blanks typically are made by using a casing that is longer than a typically sized casing and crimped in such a way that the crimp actually forms the basic shape of a bullet. This makes it possible for them to feed in semi-automatic fashion. To get the gun to cycle though, blank-firing guns require a modification to constrict the gas flow so as to provide enough force to cycle the slide. Additionally, often the recoil spring will be replaced with a lighter one that will move with less force required.

    This is essentially what you see with prop guns used in movies and on tv. Once a gun is modified to use a blank, it CANNOT use regular ammunition without being converted back to its original configuration.

    Some guns, like ARs and AKs can function with blank ammunition with a simple device that attaches to the end of the barrel. Most other guns though require more significant modifications and entire businesses exist just making blank firing weapons, maintaining them, and manufacturing blanks for them.

    Under NO condition is a blank to be used in self-defense.

    1) To do so, you'd have to use a gun that could ONLY fire blanks. Or, manually cycle the slide after firing the blank.

    2) Legally, you shouldn't be firing a weapon unless you intend for a projectile to hit your target. Warning shots are an often discussed topic and the consensus is that they are a horrible idea all around. (trust me, it's been hashed out a zillion times on every gun forum online),

    3) Even a blank can kill a person. There is no telling if the metallic cartridge will rupture causing a piece of metal to go flying at bullet-like speed. This is why in movies and tv, the actors rarely actually point the guns at each other, the magic of film/tv just makes it look like they do. If you think a film executive is going to let a potentially lethal weapon be pointed at a star, think again. They have already learned their lesson. Look up "Brandon Lee" on Google for more info. Mistakes are made, and blanks are not guaranteed not to cause injury.

    4) This is easily done with revolvers, but see the above reasons for why you should still not do it.

    5) If pointing a gun at somebody to fire a blank, don't expect them to know it's a blank! To them, you've just presented a credible threat of death and/or severe bodily harm and they have just gained the right to point a gun at you with REAL ammunition and pull the trigger.

    If after all this, you are still comprehending the idea, I don't know what to tell you.... it's a bad idea. It's good to see you're thinking about possibilities, and don't let this put you off from coming up with other ideas, but as you can see, bouncing ideas off the community can often show you a side of something you hadn't thought of and can potentially save your butt. In this case, it's well established that using blanks in self-defense is a bad idea and a good way to either end up in jail or more likely - dead.

    Here at THR, we'd rather you avoid both. :)

    Most of us here deal with having less-lethal force available in addition to lethal force. Pepper-spray, stun-guns, etc. are all good ways to defend yourself when force is warranted, but not deadly force.

    If you tell us what state you're in, somebody might be able to recommend a book that will help you familiarize yourself with the relevant laws. This is EXTREMELY helpful.
     
  19. SCKimberFan

    SCKimberFan Member

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    This cannot be overstated.

    BAD IDEA. One of the 4 rules. Know what is around, behind what you are aiming at. Who knows where that bullet will end up?
     
  20. kingpin008

    kingpin008 Member

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    Does anyone? I've never understood that particular reasoning as justification for warning shots/only carrying so many rounds of ammo. Nobody in their right mind practices to miss - why are you any different?

    Ok, but the problem with that, is that you go into the activity expecting to confront and interact with an animal. You've prepared yourself to take that split second shot, if only in the sense that you've said "ok, I'm going calling today. Gonna have to be ready to rock 'n roll if things go sideways." That's a heck of a lot different from running day-to-day errands, where you sometimes slip in and out of situational awareness, and you have a much harder time controlling the environment.

    Spoken like a guy who's never had to scrap it out with a fellow who's just been shot five times at conversational distances. You also must account for the fact that while you were shooting, the target was also likely advancing on your position - forcing you to either move and shoot, or stand static and take whatever blows they were able to dish out. Maybe it's just me, but that seems like a great time to have one more round to work with.

    As always, just my two cents. I respect your opinion, and your right to have it - even if I don't agree with it. I just worry that should the time ever come to put those beliefs and opinions into action, most won't have the same luck you've apparently had so far.
     
  21. baryon

    baryon Member

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    Thanks for all the replies. The reason for asking this question is statistics show that many volatile situations end by merely pulling a gun. And many more end after firing a single shot. Shooting someone changes your life forever. That is why I want to avoid doing it. Of course, if there is no other way then one has to make that decision.

    By the way, nobody answered what happens if I do create a dummy by removing the bullet and put some filler in there. If I fire that cartridge what happens to the slide? Does it stay as it? For every action there must be some reaction. Don't rockets, missiles propel forward by the expulsion of the propellant? The slide is analogous to the missile and the burnt gun powder is the propellant. Am I right?
     
  22. KelVarnson

    KelVarnson Member

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    I think what is missing from your equation is the inertia from the mass of the bullet. Without that inertial load to work against, the gasses escape much more quickly and with much less resistance, and so therefore generate much less rearward force on the slide.
     
  23. kingpin008

    kingpin008 Member

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    Baryon - part of why nobody has really answered your question, is because it depends on a lot of factors. Such as: how powerful is the particular primer in the shell you've emptied and replaced with filler? Is it powerful enough to burn through whatever you've used as filler, and propel the bullet from the case? If so, was the force also sufficient to cycle the slide? If so, to what degree? Was it able to fully cycle the slide, or just partially?

    And such and so forth. I can tell you that one thing you're extremely likely to do with such a setup is create a squib, which is a bad thing. Basically, a squib is when a round is fired but is not powerful enough to propel the bullet completely out of the barrel, thus creating a blockage. Now, sometimes this occurs and the shooter notices it and can deal with it accordingly, and sometimes it occurs and the shooter continues firing, potentially blowing up their gun and injuring themselves. Injuries from such an event can seriously damage or even kill you, depending on what type of round is being fired and what type of gun is being used. They're nothing to mess with.

    Unless a gun is specifically designed or otherwise equipped to run with blanks or down-loaded cartridges, it's not a good idea. Please don't do it, especially in a firearm that is being depended on to save your life or the life of a loved one.
     
  24. protolith

    protolith Member

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    I think this should be theoretically possible with blowback style actions (it might not have even been done successfully).
    If the cartridge has a properly designed nozzle to achieve correct chamber pressure, you should be able to simulate the pressure response to a normally fired round. This is clearly going to be more complicated than a simple crimped case or wax plug - and probably far from cost effective (see Gyroget)

    As for gas operated designs like an AR, AK, SKS, or FAL, the only way to cycle a blank will be with a blank adapter as the action cycles on pressure in the barrel and not at the chamber (the blank adapter will have to be removed prior to firing any real bullets, or else you will have kaboom in your face).

    As for the tactical ideas for the blank, the responses suggesting you avoid are because 99 out of 100 SD threats will be ended by the sight of a gun, 99 out of 100 times that shots are fired, one will do (whether it hits or misses it should have been a real shot - any caliber will also usually do in this scenario)

    in the 1 in 10,000 times multiple follow up shots are required, you will need every shot you have, and probably more than that. This is the area of caliber debates (9mm vs .45ACP) this is the area of back up guns, NY reloads, extra mags, hi cap mags and the like, this is the area of stopping power vs high round count. This is the area that Everyone that carries shouldn't want to be in but does want to survive.

    If you trust the statistics, join the heard, you don't need a gun. I would rather be prepared for the 1 in 1:1,000,000 scenario but never need a weapon, than find myself in that scenario regretting a single wasted/ineffective shot.
     
  25. blackhawk2000

    blackhawk2000 member

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    Very bad idea.

    If you are not prepared to take a life you shouldn't be carrying in the first place.
     
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