EAA Witness ELITE MATCH 10mm: mini review, Kimber ST II-10mm comparison.

[jfh]

where are you guys purchasing these guns from?

1. My LGS had one / more in stock--but I think that is not typical. I know the younger guy that works there is a genuine gun enthusiast, and he likes the CZ-75 design....so I'll bet that is why they stocked it.

2. At that time (five weeks ago), there were also EM-10s (my abbreviation; don't search on it) listed on GunsAmerica for shipping to your local FFL.

3. Ron Reed, of Reed's ammunition (link here), stays on top of the EAAs and stocks them as possible. My e-mails have been answered promptly; he also promotes on GunsAmerica. Had my LGS not had it, I would have bought from him.

In early January, the typical online price was about $520.00 plus the local FFL costs. Keep that in mind when you call the Fort Worth shop.

From my purchasing contacts with EAA, I suspect the business is mostly staffed by good employees, possibly semi-retired (given their location in FL). They know how to do their tasks, but they are not Salesmen. Given EAAs orientation to the market, it's obvious they are running a lean-and-mean operation to hold costs down. So, if your questions are technical in nature, they may be getting information from the gunsmith, or whoever, to pass back to you.

Quite frankly, you will probably get better (technical) information off the owner commentary, like here. I'll bet their gunsmith(s) are not oriented to the computer / CS side of things....

Jim H.

 

[Markbo]

Hmmm... learning more and more.
I can get an Elite Match for $5 bills or a hunter model for close to $9. That actually helps my choice a lot as I don't see any problem drilling out the frame for an optical sight, BUT doesn't the Match model have polygonal rifling?

Isn't that a no-no for lead bullets? The barrel is quite shorter too, so I would be losing some velocity and front end heaviness.

 

[mpmarty]

None of the tanfoglio (EAA) guns have poly rifling. All shoot cast bullets fine. The barrel in the EM (Elite Match) runs right around five inches.

 

[Markbo]

Oh really? Maybe we should tell them their website is absolutely eat up with bad information then:

Custom features include full length dust cover frame which is drilled and tapped for an optic mount, square trigger guard, single action trigger with over travel stop, checkered front and back strap, extended beavertail, funneled magazine well for speed reloading, custom shop safety, custom shop magazine release, hart hammer, interchangeable front sights, adjustable rear sight, polygonal rifled match grade barrel, checkered wood grips, and brushed chrome finish.

 

[wally]

I think what EAA gets from Tanfoglio and what they put in the catalog and on the web site don't always agree.

I've got the Limited and Stock in .45ACP, the Elite in 10mm, .40S&W, and 9mm. None have polygonal rifling, and except for the 10mm they all get shot with mostly hard cast lead.

Look at the bore before you buy if polygonal rifling is important or a problem for you.

--wally.

 

[Markbo]

Well that really breeds confidence in EAA, doesn't it?

It would be easy to clarify what gun had what if I were buying it in person. But that will probably not be the case from what I have been able to find so far.

 

[SDDL-UP]

I'm a big fan of the CZ-75 and think it's an outstanding weapon, but the Witness Elite Stock in 10mm has me thinking really hard about getting my first Tanfoglio!

Fifteen rounds of 10mm in something besides a Glock, I like that. I already own a couple of 40 S&W's but at least I can shoot the same bullets. For my purposes there really isn't much the 10mm can do that the 40 can't, so it's not that I really think I need more power, but that is one nice pistol!

 

[boogalou]

Well I have been emailing with EAA the last week or so. It seems whoever answers the emails doesn't actually know anything and has to go and ask someone. Then they cannot seem to answer more than one question - even though I number my questions to make it easier. It's like pulling teeth to get information out of them.

You might be better off going to Henning Walgrens sight - http://henningshootsguns.com/

He should be able to answer any questions you have. Although the customer service at EAA has supposely improved over the past year, there are still reports that the gunsmith there is not exactly "customer oriented".

None of the tanfoglio (EAA) guns have poly rifling. All shoot cast bullets fine. The barrel in the EM (Elite Match) runs right around five inches.

AFAIK, the Elite Match never came with poly rifling, although the Elite Stock did, since I own a older one in .45ACP. You can also replace the rear sights with the ones that Henning has on his website -
http://henningshootsguns.com/shop/sights.html

My Match came with the Bomar supersight and my Stock has the tactical fixed sight.

My Match -



and Stock -

 

[agtman]

jfh: thanks for your review of the Kimber and Elite Match 10mms. Very nice.

Nice photos, too, boogalou.

 

[Markbo]

Well I'll be darned. That site showed that you CAN mount an optical platform on the short frame... well, well, well.... how about that!?

 

[jfh]

Update: Tanstaafl.

When I received my back-ordered .22LR top end, I also received a copy of the paper 2008 catalog. (The 2007 catalog is still featured on the EAA home page, and AFAIK, is still the one available for download as a PDF.

I took time to read the features of the Witness Elite Match carefully in the 2008, and compared it to the Stock version of the Witness Elite series.

Among other features, they note that the Stock has a 'Premium Competition Barrel' and a 'Cone Lock Barrel System' for accuracy in the catalog. The Match is specified with polygonal rifling; on the (not-updated) site they say the "...features include a 4 & 3/4" match grade barrel."

Meanwhile, the Elite Match I have does have a Bevelled Magwell--which is NOT called out in '08 catalog the specs table, nor does it have the polygonal rifling which is also listed. I'm not sure these variations are really much different than what we find in other manufacturer's site specs and press releases, but it is frustrating to those of us who like to know what we are actually buying.

Online pricing suggests that the Stock--which includes checkering, and wood grips, plus some other minor detail changes; the biggest difference is using the SA/DA trigger subassembly--would retail for about $200.00 more than the Elite Match at my LGS, or perhaps $675.00 or so. If the Stock 10mm is the one that would compare favorably against the Kimber ST II 10mm in out-of-the-box accuracy, then the price benefit to EAA is still about $300.00 or so.

Jim H.

 

[kennedy]

I have owned a witness silver team in .40 for several years and only now have begun to shoot it, I am reloading for it and finnally getting the results I am happy with, 2 in group at 25yds with 10 shots. it has the factory compensator, single action trigger(4lb pull) and drilled and tapped, so I mounted a aimpoint red dot on it.

 

[jfh]

.22LR top end mini-review; another accuracy update:

The .22 LR kit I had on back order from last fall arrived a few weeks ago. Here's a picture of the kit as it arrived in its green Tanfolglio box, complete with instructions, one magazine, and even a field cleaning rod.

Unlike the Elite Match Slide, this one arrived with the lo-mount Target rear sight; the front site is the standard (side) dovetail design. The slide is aluminum, and the barrel is steel. Installation is the standard slide removal and installation routine. Like most .22 switchtop conversions, the operation is straight blowback and NOT cam-locked. The slide does NOT lock back after the last round; there is no stop notch.

With the .22 kit installed, the EA Elite Match package weighs 31.7 oz. with no magazine, 34.6 oz with the (plastic) 10-round single-stack magazine in place, and 36.6 oz with 10 rounds of Federal Gold Medal Match (40-gr. solid) ammunition loaded.

Here's a link showing right side of the pistol with this top end installed, and here's a picture showing the top end off the frame, from the left side.

FIT AND FINISH: On the frame, the slide fit is as good as the 10mm slide fit at the factory. The matte anodized finish looks good, but is flat enough to show oils / fingerprints, etc. easily (no special attemp was made to clean it up for the pictures). The barrel lug, however, showed little finish machining--there are chatter marks on the bevels and the bottom flats, and the brakes at the lug rear are not rounded. Stoning will probably clean this up easily, FWIW.

FUNCTION: Given the fussiness of .22s for the type of ammo they like, I took three different boxes with me to the range--PMC 'Zapper,' some Rem 'target' and some Federal Gold Match. All this ammo was bought at least ten years ago, and only the PMC is considered 'high velocity.'

The rough finish on the lug may have had some impact on this initial range session. I started with the PMC, then the Remington, and finally the Federal, and 10-shot strings were fired with each one. While all ejected fine, the PMC had numerous (50%) misfires on the next shot. However, if I recocked the hammer manually, it fired just fine. The Remington target had about 30% misfires on its first go (rounds 10-20), and the Federal about two (rounds 30-40). Another ten rounds each, in the same order were fired, and the misfires decreased for all three.

My guess at this point is that the barrel lug drag from the poor machining is impacting just how well the SA assembly trigger resets. By the time I shot the accuracy target, the PMC was still misfiring about 30%, the Rem just once, and the Federal had no misfires.

.22LR Accuracy: As the target shows here, no attempt was made to zero the sights--but all three shoot to roughly the same POA at 10 yards. The PMC Zapper is the upper left bull; the Remington Target is the Upper Right, and the Federal GM Match is the lower left.

The standard caveat I give about indoor shooting and my aging eyes obviously applies. However, it does appear that the package likes the Federal Gold Medal Match most--and it should; it's a nominal premium grade round.

10mm accuracy, cont'd. The Lower Right bullseye was shot with ten rounds of the 'burnishing load ammo' to finish off the range time. Again, the accuracy seems to be improving; I shot this in two five shot strings from one magazine, with a short pause in between the strings--and you can see how I simply didn't see the target the same way on the 2nd string.

The "22 LR Conversion Kit" is shown on the inside back cover of the 2008 catalog, but no part number is given for it or for the .22LR magazine. When I ordered mine last fall, the price was $199.95 plus shipping, and the extra magazines were EAA's 'standard' price of $35.00. For a total price of about $700.00, one can have these two calibers in a good quality pistol, and that's a real good value IMO.

I consider this a fair value, particularly given the lo-mount target sight and the dovetailed front sight. It certainly provides satisfactory range accuracy and as such is a satisfactory package for economical shooting with your centerfire EAA. Who knows, with the right ammo, it may be capable of club competition-level accuracy.

Jim H.

 

[Little Wolf]

My local gun dealer had the above witness gun in 10mm. After holding and evaluating the gun, I liked it so much that I almost bought it on the spot. I told him, however, that I just had to do a bit more research into the gun before I considered purchasing it.

Main reason was because the gun is a poly frame, and the size and weight are so small and light the gun feels like a .40 and not a 10mm. I had to be sure it could fire the doubletap 10mm rounds with no problems. The manual states that the gun isn't rated to fire +p rounds!!

I did some research on the witness 10mm pistols and have heard mixed things. For some people, they all seemed to work right out of the box. For others, they needed wolf recoil and mag springs to function. Some also needed polishing. Some just wouldn't run reliably no matter what, even after multiple trips back to the factory.

I have also heard that they may or may not function reliably with hollow point rounds (which would defeat the purpose of me buying a 10mm).

All I want to know is if anyone has had any experience with the above pictured Witness. Specifically the poly framed 10mm full size?

Can this gun function reliably with double tap ammo?

The answers I receive will determine whether I purchase the gun or not.

 

[jfh]

Little Wolf: I see that nobody has responded to your inquiries about the poly-framed Witnesses.

I can't be of help; I have no experience with them. But, this post and the subsequent bump back to the top today may give it visibility and you'll get a response. As far as ammunition goes--well, I've had no problems with either the earlier .45ACP Witness or with this current 10mm Elite Match.

I suspect that the most recent guns "manufactured" as Witnesses for Tanfolglio have better QC. The only off-putting quality issue I've had on these recent purchases are the machining chatter marks on the .22LR kit's link. But, I really don't have an opinion on the plastic guns.

Jim H.

 

[wally]

My experience with the Witness-P is negative in 9mm & .40S&W, but no issues in .45ACP.

I've the older large frames without the rails. Perhaps they have fixed the issues with the new frames with the rails, perhaps not.

I "fixed" my Witness-P 9mm and .40S&W by epoxying a spacer into the rear of the mag well so I could use small frame (CZ sized) Baby Eagle mags CDNN used to sell for $10 each. But I still have issues with premature slide lock in the .40S&W with hot loads from what appears to be frame flexing. This would make me skeptical of the 10mm unless they have specifically addressed the issue in the frame redesign.

--wally.

 

[NWdude83]

Going by price, it should be EAA Elite Limited vs. Kimber Target II

 

[IdahoLT1]

For those who can help:

I recently purchased a Witness Match 10mm and havent had the best luck with it. Ive only gone through 50 rds(AE 180gr ball) and it had Failure to feed problems. Every 4 or 5 rounds, the next round being cycled would feed high. It would jam in between the top of the chamber and the top of the slide. I have no idea what is causing this. Im not sure if its the ammo, the mags, the springs or the gun needing broken in. Im not used to malfunctions as my Beretta and Kahr have been flawless, with the Beretta seeing close to 3000 rounds.

I purchased a Wolff spring kit (16LB-22LB) springs and A sprinco recoil reducer. Unfortunately, i ordered the wrong recoil reducer. I needed the long slide version and ordered the standard. I also read on a CZ75 forum that Wilson Combat makes a Shok Buff for the 1911 that apparently fits the Witness pistols. So i ordered those. Im trying to make sure this gun lasts a while, as ive read that some people have cracked frames before. I plan on reloading target loads for it but want to carry some 200gr Double Tap ammo.

Theres alot to these guns and im very green with them and the design, so any help would be appreciated. Any recommendations or ideas on keeping this firearm my favorite in my ever expanding collection?

 

[neviander]

The thing WAS a tack driver. It HAD a great trigger. It lookED good and felt good in the hands.

On my third range trip, the frame cracked.

It seems as if a lot of 10mms are fraught with problems of this nature. Why don't the manufacturers just beef up all of the components instead of trying to slink by the frame and slide that's meant for a round with far less pressure?

 

[saturno_v]

I loved my Witness 10 mm but I had several feed issues not corrected with the changing of the recoil and magazine springs.
EAA customer service is horrible and they wanted me to pay shipping to and from...that is too much, I gave it up and traded the gun away...

If one day Tanfoglio will import their pistols using a different and more professional company I definitely will consider them again...until then the hassles or potential hassles are not worth my $400....

 

[loop]

IdahoLT1,

There are a few things to look at to fix your feed problem. It may be that the slide is cycling too quickly and the mag has not pushed the cartridge into position in time for the slide to properly engage. The cure for this is a step down in recoil spring (18 pound to 16 pound).

It may be the same thing, but the reason is the mag spring is not pushing the round fast enough. The answer to that is a Wolff +10 mag spring.

I think it is likely that the problem is mag lips that are a bit too wide and the mag needs a minor adjustment. I recommend getting a cheap pair of pliers that have a wide bite, but thin head so you can get a firm grip on the edge of the lips and then grinding the serrations off the faces of the pliers, to tune the mag.

There is some good advice on mag tuning for Tanfoglios at http://www.tanfo11.com/

Someone earlier mentioned getting a cleaner/lighter breaking trigger. EGW (Evolution Gun Works) makes a hardened sear and a matching hammer for Tanfoglio. Henning Wallgren sells them and will install them if you want. I've heard the trigger pull can be taken down to 1 1/2 pounds with this setup. EGW will also do the work.

Henning also carries the fiber optic front sight, which I cannot recommend highly enough. (Took less than 10 minutes to change mine out.)

Someone also said something about having to shave their mag baseplates to get them in the wells. Henning also has aluminum baseplates that fit in the wells and won't break when dropped. He also has extended baseplates that increase mag capacity in some calibers. The baseplates are IDPA and IPSC approved.

If you are having trouble with a Tanfoglio I would not hesitate to call Henning. I'd even call him before going to EAA if I had a broken slide or frame. I wouldn't be surprised a bit if he could help faster and cheaper than EAA.

Henning is one of the top 10 USPSA shooters in the US. He is also a very easy guy to talk to. I've called him more often than I feel comfortable interrupting his business, but he's always taken time to answer my questions and even BS a little.

Hennings shop is at http://www.henningshootsguns.com/shop/eaa.main.html

it is also at
http://www.tanfoglioparts.com/

Custom work, including slide lightening, checkering, squaring trigger guards, refinishing, etc., is also available through Dawson Precision.
http://www.dawsonprecision.com/

I have several Tanfoglios and have now won six matches in a row in CDP class in local IDPA using two different Tanfoglios. You won't hear any complaints from me.

I change out my carry guns pretty often, but for the past few weeks I've been carrying my compact carry in poly in .45. It actually may be the most accurate .45 I own. From a rest at 10 yards I can keep groups under an inch. It is also 100 percent reliable. Don't know how it holds up as a 10mm, but it is a sweet little .45.

 

[jfh]

I'd been musing over how to respond to IdahoLT1 about his feed problem--I have been one of the lucky ones, with no issues at all. Based on my 1911 experiences, it sure sounded like the feed lips needed adjusting--although I might have started out with a recoil spring change.

Loop's answer is the comprehensive one, for sure.

And, now that our Minnesota-Winter-that-would-never-end has ended, I'll be shooting the accuracy tests shortly--the outdoor range time I've had so far has gone into my 38/357 short barrel reloading tests.

Jim H.

 

[IdahoLT1]

Well to let you guys know, i reloaded about 300rds of 10mm(155gr. w/ 9.6gr of Power Pistol) and will probably run it through the pistol, switching out springs and trying to tinker with it. Hopefully it works out because the gun is a sweet one.

I have the factory spring plus Wolff 16#, 18#, 20# and 22# springs. The Wilson Combat shok buffs fit the spring rod, but the slide wont lock back because of it, so im thinking those will create further loading problems. They were only $8 so it was worth a try.

 

[jfh]

Bump.

I reviewed this old thread and find it is still accurate--at least insofar as the comparison of the two guns discussed.

Prices are up, of course--about $775 now for the Elite Match 10, and the lower-priced 'top ends' for switching out calibers are no longer available. The Kimber Target in stainless now lists for over $1150.00 and appears to sell for close to that price (at least on GunBroker).

So--FWIW.

Jim

 

[ny32182]

If you are not aware, you can get the full target sight that comes on the Elite competition frame models for about 60 bucks; I imagine you slide probably has the same cuts and it would fit fine, but you could post pictures to be sure.

Also, from what I can tell, if you want to add a double action capability to the trigger, all you would have to do is buy the DA hammer and disconnector and it should drop right in. MAY require some slight fitting, but probably not if you have all stock parts otherwise.