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EAA Witness

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by CCantu357, Nov 4, 2012.

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  1. Ash

    Ash Member

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    I had a 10mm Witness and liked it fine. It had a square-slide and I sold it only because I have no more 10mm's and never warmed up to the caliber.
     
  2. intercooler

    intercooler member

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    Yes that was me who posted the picture of the crack near the mag release. It is a factory cut they put in on other models. It's something they should have done on the Match as well but didn't. The meat there is just very thin and I think sliding full mags into the well causes the crack there. No biggie!
     
  3. MachIVshooter

    MachIVshooter Member

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    Actually, it's not new. They've been putting the relief cut on the elite models for some time. My 2007 Limited has them.

    No, it's frame flex that causes it. And no, it's not a problem. It either develops after use, or is put there from factory.

    Incidentally, the shorter frame of my compact seems to have resisted this tendency. Still no crack, gun is almost 10 years old with many, MANY hot loads down range.
     
  4. dcarch

    dcarch Member

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    Get a Ruger GP-100. :evil::evil::evil: Just kidding. That's a toughie. It really depends on the intended purpose of the gun. Is this going to be for competition, or self defense? Is this a range gun or a nightstand gun? For a purely functional self defense gun, I would go with the gun. On the other hand, if this is going to be more of a "for fun" gun, I would probably go with the Witness, as I've had a running love affair with CZ pistols for a very long time. My advice regarding the Ruger still stands if you're worried about reliability, btw.
     
  5. Seer792

    Seer792 Member

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    Witness 10mm's need 20# springs

    I'm glad to see others have learned that their Witness 10mm's need 20# springs. My compact Wonder Finish (Tenifer) slide cracked several years ago but after EAA replaced it I went to the 20# Wolff springs and no more problems. I now have a new 10mm full size frame, the slide is much beefier on this one but I still installed a 20# Wolff spring, it makes it a little hard to rack but it's worth it.
     

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  6. Buck13

    Buck13 Member

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    Is that the standard model, or one of the higher versions? I have a full-sized "base model" Witness 10 mm on order. I'm planning to load and shoot mostly moderate ammo (around 550 FP ME). Not sure if that warrants replacing the spring?
     
  7. Weevil

    Weevil Member

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    Most of the cracked slide issues started when they went to the more streamlined rounded slides like the one Seer792 posted.

    [​IMG]


    This was never an issue with the older squared slides.

    witness10mmjp8x6_edited.jpg


    Had a Witness 10mm and a G20, still have the G20 sold the Witness.

    My only real gripe with the Witness was the mags, that and it weighed a ton. With good mags they'd probably be a great pistol but at the time they weren't.

    While the G20 is not as nice ergonomics wise it has quality mags available, and much better support as far as parts and accessories for it.
     
  8. Torian

    Torian Member

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    The new production 10m Elite Match's (serial numbers in black) seem to be fine. I have one of these with the new K10 magazines (black follower), and don't have any issues.

    I don't like shooting the 10mm full power loads out of a Glock. It is just not comfortable shooter for me when you ramp up the recoil with underwood loads.

    I can't speak for older Elite Match 10mm. I would not have purchased the one I have unless it was a new production. The new 10mm Elite Match series are pretty hard to come by these days.
     
  9. Walt Sherrill

    Walt Sherrill Member

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    It MAY be worth it, or it may unnecessary extra effort. The fact that you have the NEW design slide is arguably the most important thing you've written.

    I doubt that a heavier recoil spring protects either the frame or the new- or older-design slide on these guns. The recoil spring's main function is to close the slide, not to reduce the shooter's experience of recoil or protect the slide or frame. When a weaker recoil spring is used, the force not stored in the spring goes into the shooter's hand and arm.

    We should note, too, that when Tanfoglio made some earlier changes to their guns in response to slide cracks, they made stress cuts in the slides, but didn't really go to heavier recoil springs. (I think Beretta did some similar in-field fixes to a bunch of Army and Marine M9's around the time of "Desert Storm" when those guns had similar slide problems.)

    1911Tuner, a participant here and on other gun forums, has demonstrated that firing 1911s without recoil springs doesn't damage either the shooter or the gun; the slide just doesn't load the next round. While Witnesses aren't 1911s, the basic functions of these locked-breech, short-recoil Browning style guns are the same.

    A heavier recoil spring STORES more of the force of the fired round, and then later passes that extra stored force back through barrel, slide and slide-stop to the frame as the slide slams shut. A heavier recoil spring is more likely to damage a slide stop than protect a slide or frame.

    A heavier hammer spring will also slow the slide as it cocks the hammer but that stored force will be returned to the frame later than usual -- when the hammer falls, not when the slide slams shut. That means that the total force being returned is the same, it is split up differently, with a bit less hitting the slide stop when the slide first closes, and a bit more hitting later.

    If I had a 10mm Witness -- I did once, but later sold it -- I'd go with the factory-recommended 14 lb. recoil spring and make life a bit easier when racking the slide. (Jumping from 14 lbs to 20 lbs is a roughly 40% increase, and that's big!)
     
  10. wally

    wally Member

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    In 10mm? My .45 ACP Witness pistols have been wonderful and problem free, IMHO the Witness Elite 45 is what the CZ97 should have been.

    I recommend the Witness 45, but in other calibers (9mm .40S&W, or 10mm) your happiness will depend on your luck of the draw with magazines. Futzing around with followers, extra power magazine springs and tweaking feed lips have gotten all my mags to work reliably except in 10mm.

    The 9mm & .40S&W mags with the spacers (to make the internal length of the mag better match the OAL of 9mm & .40S&W rounds) seemed to fix the mag issues in 9mm & .40S&W so if these are all you have and 100% of what EAA is supplying now, then I probably would recommend the 9mm & 40S&W versions.
     
  11. IdahoSkies

    IdahoSkies Member

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    I have a witness in 9mm, and a Glock 29. So not totally on point to your question, but close. Both the witness and Glock platforms can handle the 10mm. The Witness is a heavier gun, and the polymer frame of the Glock actually really does a good job of managing the 10mm recoil. You first have to decide:

    1) Do I want a striker fired pistol, or a DA/SA hammer fired pistol,
    2) Do I want a manual safety?
    3) Does the pistol fit my hand?

    Answering those questions will answer which one you should get. They both handle 10mm round.

    The larger frame (10mm) witness has the advantage of being able to go from a .22lr all the way up 10mm (including .45ACP), by swapping out the slide and barrel, and using the correct magazine. Its a very versatile gun.
     
  12. ATLDave

    ATLDave Member

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    Good questions, except that #1 should also include SAO options, since quite a few Witness Elite models have SAO triggers.
     
  13. PGT

    PGT Member

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    Last edited: Feb 13, 2013
  14. wally

    wally Member

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    Dawson Precision makes ones that fit.
     
  15. PGT

    PGT Member

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    I was looking at the Henning kit.
     
  16. saturno_v

    saturno_v Member

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    Even if they fixed the 10mm issue...you still have to deal potentially with EAA if you get the occasional lemon which is a distinct possibility.......a good enough reason to stay away from these pistols.

    I will never get tired to repeat that I would not trust EAA to manage a hot dog cart let alone selling firearms...

    My suggestion...stay away from EAA products....
     
  17. carbonyl

    carbonyl Member

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    WOW, just googled both. I'll take finding a crack in the slide to finding my fingers in the grass any day!!!!:eek:
     
  18. Torian

    Torian Member

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    Guys... The slide issue was tracked down to a bad batch of steel that EAA used to manufacture slides a few years ago. It was prevalent in the Elite Matches too. New production Elite Matches do NOT have the slide issues that the older models had, nor do they have the mag issues either.

    Of course, EAA really screwed the pooch when they failed to ensure quality control on the older models. Even though they offered to replace slides, it was still an aggravating process for many, and many of those just lost faith in the company entirely. They caused a lot of grief for buyers, and on the internet, none of this stuff is going away any time soon. Imagine loving a gun that you can't shoot because the company can't make a magazine that works? I know, crazy.

    For us newer 10mm EAA buyers, I love the weapon, particularly the Elite Match. Great trigger, tight action, very accurate (the most accurate shooter I have next to my 5 in 627 PC), and double stack. I would choose it over a Glock ANY day. I would not recommend buying an older one, but if you get a chance to shoot a new production, please do. If the serial number is in black, at least for the 10mm Elite Match models, it is a new production model
     
  19. Walt Sherrill

    Walt Sherrill Member

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    While this may be a valid explanation, but it is the FIRST time I've heard it, after years of hearing horror stories about the slides. Not saying it's false, but....

    1) do you have a source for this information?

    2) Makes me want to ask, if it was bad steel, why they changed the slide design. That change was supposedly done in response to the problem. (Maybe it wasn't?)

    3) EAA doesn't manufacture anything -- it's an importer. They just import their Witness guns (from Tanfoglio). That being the case, has anyone heard of Tanfoglio building other guns, under their own brand, that demonstrated the same problem?

    As I've noted in earlier responses, I've had a bunch of Witness guns over the years, and no real complaints. The only one that gave me problems was a Sport Long Slide in .45 (for which I also had a 10mm shorter slide.) Those problems were expensive, but not frame or slide related -- and I had bought the gun used so didn't look to EAA to fix them.

    A real jerk or two works at EAA in key positions (or did work there), and has/have done more damage to that company than they will ever understand. I like their guns, but not the company.
     
  20. bltmonty

    bltmonty Member

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    My witness P carry--polymer--was not strong enough to handle normal 10mm loads. The frame flexed considerably with the trigger pin coming out and the magazine catch only working sometime.

    However, I have a witness elite in 10mm that's the best handgun I have--and I have the glock 29, sigs, cz's , ect.
     
  21. Dakotared

    Dakotared Member

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    Truer words have never been spoken. The guns are some of the best out there. Too bad they have a bad importer. I had to deal with them not to long ago, they did fix the issue but it was a frustrating experience.
     
  22. dcarch

    dcarch Member

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    ^This.
     
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