Don't own a 1911 but I think I probably should. LGS has an earlier blued version (SN JRE 99XX). Not a so-called "Billboard" model but with the smaller cartouche. It appears to be in VG conditon if not near NIB, though I've yet to handle it. No forward serations, just a basic 1911 with the typical improvements: beavertail, extended grip and thumb safeties, etc. For $600, any thoughts on such a gun as a starter, probably only 1911?
Earlier S&W 1911
- Thread starter JumboJVT
- Start date
JTQ
Member
In general, I'd say any S&W 1911 is probably pretty good.
What "earlier" means to you is unclear.
Early S&W 1911's had a Mochak designed firing pin safety that works off the grip safety. They were a pretty good design and robust, but most 1911's don't have a firing pin safety, and since 1911's are a traditional type of gun, usually purchased by traditionalists, S&W eventually dropped the firing pin safety in their 1911's.
The first models without the firing pin safety were the Ti models, those that had a Titanium firing pin, that gave some drop safety-ness, without a firing pin safety. Next came the E-Series, also a Titanium firing pin. I don't think S&W offers current models with the firing pin safety. If you like a firing pin safety in your 1911, and that gun is earlier enough in the production cycle, that would be what you want. If you don't like a firing pin safety in your 1911, you may want to check to see if that gun has it before you buy.
S&W's other non-standard 1911 thing is the external extractor. S&W does a pretty good job with external extractors, but the later E-Series guns got the extractor from the Performance Center guns and they are a little better.
What "earlier" means to you is unclear.
Early S&W 1911's had a Mochak designed firing pin safety that works off the grip safety. They were a pretty good design and robust, but most 1911's don't have a firing pin safety, and since 1911's are a traditional type of gun, usually purchased by traditionalists, S&W eventually dropped the firing pin safety in their 1911's.
The first models without the firing pin safety were the Ti models, those that had a Titanium firing pin, that gave some drop safety-ness, without a firing pin safety. Next came the E-Series, also a Titanium firing pin. I don't think S&W offers current models with the firing pin safety. If you like a firing pin safety in your 1911, and that gun is earlier enough in the production cycle, that would be what you want. If you don't like a firing pin safety in your 1911, you may want to check to see if that gun has it before you buy.
S&W's other non-standard 1911 thing is the external extractor. S&W does a pretty good job with external extractors, but the later E-Series guns got the extractor from the Performance Center guns and they are a little better.
Thank you. As I understand it from the research I've done, the JRE series S/N was year two production, somewhere '05-ish?. It appears the early JRE guns still had the large, so-called billboard "SW1911" engraved on the slide as with the initial offerings. I believe it does have the firing pin safety, and clearly an external extractor.
Anyway, I'm not opposed to a firing-pin safety and am glad to hear that its a decent design. I think I'll go take a look.
JTQ
Member
Here is the Mochak firing pin safety patent.
It is similar to the Swartz firing pin safety Colt developed in the 1930's, and is used by Kimber today, as it is operated off the grip safety rather than the trigger like the Colt Series 80 firing pin safety. It is a more robust design than the Swartz, and probably had a better reputation, but S&W was the only user, and it wasn't used for that long. S&W is probably the only source for parts, and perhaps expertise with its' function.
Tom Selleck's "Jesse Stone" character uses a Commander size S&W 1911 from that era.
US6374526B1 - Firing pin block for pistol - Google Patents
A firearm having a firing pin block that does not affect trigger pull is disclosed. The firing pin block embodied in the present invention is actuated by a grip safety operably linked to a spring biased locking plunger to prevent accidental discharge of the firearm. An intermediate lever...
patents.google.com
It is similar to the Swartz firing pin safety Colt developed in the 1930's, and is used by Kimber today, as it is operated off the grip safety rather than the trigger like the Colt Series 80 firing pin safety. It is a more robust design than the Swartz, and probably had a better reputation, but S&W was the only user, and it wasn't used for that long. S&W is probably the only source for parts, and perhaps expertise with its' function.
Tom Selleck's "Jesse Stone" character uses a Commander size S&W 1911 from that era.
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fastbolt
Member
FWIW, S&W had an early recall/revision to the FPS in the SW1911. It prevented the FPS from dropping down so far that it was caught and trapped by the safety lever.
If I remember right (been a while), the SW1911 was being made by the PC until approx 5000 units had been made, after which production had been shifted over to the main plant at Springfield. Several years later it was moved to the Houlton plant. I still have a factory SW1911 extractor Bar Gauge for checking the extractor engagement, and a couple spare extractors, pins and springs, should it ever become necessary to replace the one in mine, but I expect mine to run for many more years. The extractor spring tension was checked the same way as in the 3rd gen guns, meaning using a Wagner Force Dial gauge, checking the tension on the dial at the moment of extractor tail 'deflection' (movement) when the tool pulls on the hook. From what I was told, during production the extractors commonly dropped into the slides without having to be filled/fitted, which makes sense since their machining tolerances had reached that point for the subsequent M&P pistols. FYI, the standard SW1911 extractor is from the 3rd gen 40XX guns, and the later E-Series extractor was the taller one from the PC. I was told the pin and spring is different for the E-Series.
Anyway, the recall involved removing the rear sight base and adding a machine cut to allow a revised FPS to be used. Easy factory fix.
My SW1911SC is from '05 production, and it became one of my range beater 1911's (along with an '05 production Colt Government XSE, which I ordered after completing the Colt pistol armorer class). The SW1911SC fed, fired and ejected every JHP we stocked for duty carry over the years. It finally had the plunger tube staking become loose at one end. Since I didn't want to risk damaging the Scandium aluminum frame making the repair myself, and only had an older type of staking tool on hand (better one nowadays), I let the factory pull and replace the tube for me.
If I remember right (been a while), the SW1911 was being made by the PC until approx 5000 units had been made, after which production had been shifted over to the main plant at Springfield. Several years later it was moved to the Houlton plant. I still have a factory SW1911 extractor Bar Gauge for checking the extractor engagement, and a couple spare extractors, pins and springs, should it ever become necessary to replace the one in mine, but I expect mine to run for many more years. The extractor spring tension was checked the same way as in the 3rd gen guns, meaning using a Wagner Force Dial gauge, checking the tension on the dial at the moment of extractor tail 'deflection' (movement) when the tool pulls on the hook. From what I was told, during production the extractors commonly dropped into the slides without having to be filled/fitted, which makes sense since their machining tolerances had reached that point for the subsequent M&P pistols. FYI, the standard SW1911 extractor is from the 3rd gen 40XX guns, and the later E-Series extractor was the taller one from the PC. I was told the pin and spring is different for the E-Series.
Anyway, the recall involved removing the rear sight base and adding a machine cut to allow a revised FPS to be used. Easy factory fix.
My SW1911SC is from '05 production, and it became one of my range beater 1911's (along with an '05 production Colt Government XSE, which I ordered after completing the Colt pistol armorer class). The SW1911SC fed, fired and ejected every JHP we stocked for duty carry over the years. It finally had the plunger tube staking become loose at one end. Since I didn't want to risk damaging the Scandium aluminum frame making the repair myself, and only had an older type of staking tool on hand (better one nowadays), I let the factory pull and replace the tube for me.
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tominboise
Member
Is it a steel or alloy frame? Only reason I ask, is that steel frames are more comfortable to shoot. I had a alloy 1911SC that was a very nice pistol but eventually sold it and replaced with a steel framed Ruger 1911. If you are planning as a range gun, might want to get the heavier pistol. Otherwise, the S&W is a nice pistol.
C-grunt
Member
I recently picked up a Pro Series 9mm 1911. It's been a fantastic gun. If the gun you are looking at is anything like the one I have, you won't be disappointed.
Mine has the firing pin safety. It hasn't caused any issues.
Mine has the firing pin safety. It hasn't caused any issues.
Mine either. I very nearly bought one of the early scandium framed models back in the day, wish I had. External extractor's been 100%
fastbolt
Member
This is certainly a valid consideration. I enjoy carrying my lightweight 5" SW1911SC over the course of a long day or evening, but the Colt stainless Government XSE is more of a pussycat to shoot for a long afternoon.
orionengnr
Member
- Joined
- Jan 3, 2005
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No law against having one of each.
I have an early S&W Scandium 1911 (Gunsite Edition). Carries well, shoots well.
Also have a steel framed Kimber Pro Eclipse (4", like the S&W). I have put untold thousands of rounds through it in the last 20 years.
These days, it sees a lot of duty with a Ceiner .22LR conversion top end...but still gets some work as a .45acp range gun.
My aging wrists are still able to put 50 rds of .45acp through either the steel or Scandium 1911. Plus 50 rds of .22LR to warm up....
I have an early S&W Scandium 1911 (Gunsite Edition). Carries well, shoots well.
Also have a steel framed Kimber Pro Eclipse (4", like the S&W). I have put untold thousands of rounds through it in the last 20 years.
These days, it sees a lot of duty with a Ceiner .22LR conversion top end...but still gets some work as a .45acp range gun.
My aging wrists are still able to put 50 rds of .45acp through either the steel or Scandium 1911. Plus 50 rds of .22LR to warm up....
Well a month later I finally went and bought if for $550. Pictures to follow.
Doesn't appear to have been shot or carried much. Pretty darn clean.
First impressions as a 1911 newbie with only 100 rounds through it: what took me so long to buy one of these?! My most shot hanguns are a 4" 686, 5" 629 and a 4-5/8" Bilsey Blackhawk. I don't find the size weight or recoil of the 1911 to be anywhere near what I'd anticipated from my reading. I actually find it the opposite. Weight is weight, but the slim profile keeps is close to the body. Recoil is nothing to speak of really, my favorite 44 loads being of the Skeeter variety. And as far as size, its exactly the same length from the tip of the front sight to the heel of the main spring housing as my 2.5" 66 with Ahrends sq. butt Classic combats (my hand doesn't get on with RB's). Hard to believe but true.
The gun does have the S&W version of the Swartz firing pin safety, and a slight depression of the grip safety will allow the hammer to fall before the FP safety is out of the way (pencil test), so I may throw in a light FP and heavy FP spring and remove the Swartz parts. But nary a hiccup of any type in the 100 fired. So far so good. For $550, I'm a happy camper
Doesn't appear to have been shot or carried much. Pretty darn clean.First impressions as a 1911 newbie with only 100 rounds through it: what took me so long to buy one of these?! My most shot hanguns are a 4" 686, 5" 629 and a 4-5/8" Bilsey Blackhawk. I don't find the size weight or recoil of the 1911 to be anywhere near what I'd anticipated from my reading. I actually find it the opposite. Weight is weight, but the slim profile keeps is close to the body. Recoil is nothing to speak of really, my favorite 44 loads being of the Skeeter variety. And as far as size, its exactly the same length from the tip of the front sight to the heel of the main spring housing as my 2.5" 66 with Ahrends sq. butt Classic combats (my hand doesn't get on with RB's). Hard to believe but true.
The gun does have the S&W version of the Swartz firing pin safety, and a slight depression of the grip safety will allow the hammer to fall before the FP safety is out of the way (pencil test), so I may throw in a light FP and heavy FP spring and remove the Swartz parts. But nary a hiccup of any type in the 100 fired. So far so good. For $550, I'm a happy camper
JTQ
Member
Just be aware, S&W doesn't use a Swartz firing pin safety. It is a Mochak firing pin safety, and while it operates off the grip safety like the Swartz, and not the trigger like the Series 80, the Mochak and Swartz parts aren't the same.
orionengnr
Member
- Joined
- Jan 3, 2005
- Messages
- 5,785
Yeah, $550 for that 1911 is an early Christmas gift. Enjoy it.
Looks a bit like my Gunsite Edition PD 1911 that I bought nearly 20 years ago.
Still one of my favorite 1911s.
Looks a bit like my Gunsite Edition PD 1911 that I bought nearly 20 years ago.
Still one of my favorite 1911s.
Jim Watson
Member
Smith will probably correct the firing pin obstruction timing upon request.
I've considered that, and I'd certainly keep the parts for reinstallation if I ever passed it on. But with as little movement that it requires to disengage the grip safety, the right timing has got to be pretty hard to achieve and still be able to assemble the gun. Its also entirely possible that in the real world, any significant grip on the gun is sufficient to push the plunger out of the way, unlike my test that just slightly moved the GS to get the fail. So I'm not really confidant that S&W can really make it better than it is, or that it really needs to be.
But the general consensus seems to the that the 70-series setup, with a light FP and heavy spring is "safe enough". And there doesn't seem to be any real problem with crud intrusion through empty plunger hole. I guess I'll probably find out for myself.
Jim Watson
Member
Well, go ahead. I have two Colt S80s. The "range gun" is neutered, the carry gun is factory.
Agreed on a factory carry gun. If was was going to carry it, I'd send it in and leave it bone stock.
Anchorite
Member
Good deal. Smiths are one of the most over looked 1911s out there. Many so-called purists pass on them because of the external extractor. If anyone got the external extractor down, it’s S&W.
