EDC/Defensive FMJ ammo options?

[Pat Riot]

Don't know how long you've been gone from CA, but it took me a long time to stop worrying after NJ, myself. Freedom is better

Which time. I think I am technically insane.
I moved there and left 4 different times.
But, I know exactly what you mean. Last time I left there was nearly 3 years ago. It took me 6 months to relax. I won’t be moving back there again.

 

[Madcap_Magician]

Hard-cast lead semi- or full wadcutters with or without gas checks, depending on caliber.

 

[FL-NC]

I guess A363, which I believe is the mil equivalent of Winchester ranger 124 grain. Fairly spicy load. I would also plan on needing to use several of them if I actually had to use the gun.

 

[Zendude]

For 9mm, any FMJ 124 Gr +P or “NATO” cartridge.

 

[ThomasT]

It wouldn't bother me at all to be limited to FMJ ammo. As long as a bullet is well placed that is 99% of the job at hand. The nastiest hollow point will not make up for poor bullet placement. People have been killing each other for over 3 centuries with round balls and lead round nose bullets. A bullet through the kill zone is the most important thing. I figured out a long time ago the hype around HP ammo is just that. Hype. Maybe an expanding bullet will do a little more tissue damage but not many will walk away from a FMJ through their lungs, liver or heart. A gut shot is also supposed to be very painful.

I met a man who was with a Texas Ranger friend when he went to check on his cows. He caught a guy loading his cows in a cattle trailer. The thief panicked and pulled a 38 revolver and shot and hit the owner of the cows. He said as he shot he spun around and the bullet went through his left arm then entered the side of his chest and came out over his left nipple.

He said he felt like he was on fire and was bleeding profusely but didn't know where from. But at this point he had 4 bullet holes in him. Two entry and two exit wounds. His ranger friend grabbed him and got him in the truck and to the hospital. The thief knew he was caught and just sat down and waited for the cops to show up. He got 8 years for attempted murder. My friend didn't say what the bullet was and a doubt it would have mattered. Being shot with anything is intense trauma. Instead of worrying about the ammo just be glad you are allowed to be armed.

 

[R Reed]

Federal guard dog, expanding fmj
Lehigh critical defensive, solid copper non expanding

 

[CraigC]

It wouldn't bother me at all to be limited to FMJ ammo. As long as a bullet is well placed that is 99% of the job at hand. The nastiest hollow point will not make up for poor bullet placement. People have been killing each other for over 3 centuries with round balls and lead round nose bullets. A bullet through the kill zone is the most important thing. I figured out a long time ago the hype around HP ammo is just that. Hype. Maybe an expanding bullet will do a little more tissue damage but not many will walk away from a FMJ through their lungs, liver or heart. A gut shot is also supposed to be very painful.

I met a man who was with a Texas Ranger friend when he went to check on his cows. He caught a guy loading his cows in a cattle trailer. The thief panicked and pulled a 38 revolver and shot and hit the owner of the cows. He said as he shot he spun around and the bullet went through his left arm then entered the side of his chest and came out over his left nipple.

He said he felt like he was on fire and was bleeding profusely but didn't know where from. But at this point he had 4 bullet holes in him. Two entry and two exit wounds. His ranger friend grabbed him and got him in the truck and to the hospital. The thief knew he was caught and just sat down and waited for the cops to show up. He got 8 years for attempted murder. My friend didn't say what the bullet was and a doubt it would have mattered. Being shot with anything is intense trauma. Instead of worrying about the ammo just be glad you are allowed to be armed.

Round balls and lead bullets expand. FMJ roundnose is dismal on tissue. I wouldn't use it unless I had no other option.

 

[Boom Vang]

The most accurate and reliable ammunition in your pistol is the only correct choice.

 

[Styx]

Hard-cast lead semi- or full wadcutters with or without gas checks, depending on caliber.

Yes, I kind of settled on hard cast. I was looking into FMJ because it's a lot cheaper, but it was brought to my attention that FMJ is a lot worse than JHP against intermediate objects because it's not bonded. I don't see any flat nose bonded FMJ 9mm or 40s&w unfortunately.

 

[Styx]

Round balls and lead bullets expand. FMJ roundnose is dismal on tissue. I wouldn't use it unless I had no other option.

FMJ, JHP, and all common calibers and types of handgun ammo are dismal on tissue, no? It's what the bullet hits that makes it deadly whether it's FMJ or JHP. At least that's what I gathered so far from the data I've seen.

 

[CDW4ME]

In the specific case of New Jersey, ammunition without a hollow cavity in the nose, including those with a polymer filler, are not considered "hollow point." NJSP specifically cites Hornady Critical Defense/Critical Duty ammunition as an example.

If Critical Duty and/or Critical Defense are options, then so is 9mm.

FMJ, JHP, and all common calibers and types of handgun ammo are dismal on tissue, no? It's what the bullet hits that makes it deadly whether it's FMJ or JHP. At least that's what I gathered so far from the data I've seen.

Deadly (lethality) doesn't infer quickly incapacitating.
A pellet gun can be deadly, but not necessarily quickly incapacitating:
https://www.king5.com/article/news/...lity/281-45ef4ce3-6b38-47e0-8e3d-bfdd4abfa676

Shot placement is a variable that is not completely under ones control in a self defense situation...
Caliber, bullet type and capacity are.

 

[Styx]

If Critical Duty and/or Critical Defense are options, then so is 9mm.


Deadly (lethality) doesn't infer quickly incapacitating.
A pellet gun can be deadly, but not necessarily quickly incapacitating:
https://www.king5.com/article/news/...lity/281-45ef4ce3-6b38-47e0-8e3d-bfdd4abfa676

Shot placement is a variable that is not completely under ones control in a self defense situation...
Caliber, bullet type and capacity are.

With proper shot placement and penetration, caliber and bullet type doesn't matter much when it comes to stopping a threat is my point, whether it's JHP or FMJ.

 

[Pat Riot]

I did another search for NJ ammo regs / laws.

I found this at the Giffords Organization in my search.

“REGULATION OF UNREASONABLY DANGEROUS AMMUNITION”​

“New Jersey generally prohibits any person from knowingly possessing, manufacturing, transporting, shipping, selling, or disposing armor piercing ammunition.12
New Jersey also prohibits the knowing possession of any hollow nose or dum-dum bullet.13 Hollow nose and dum-dum are terms associated with bullets designed to expand on impact. These terms are not specifically defined under New Jersey law.”

Ammunition Regulation in New Jersey

Research New Jersey state laws on ammunition regulation, including what is regulated and what's not. Find related gun law details from Giffords Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence today.

giffords.org

The wording above is rather ignorant of reality. Apparently it’s not the wording of the Giffords group.

Section “f.” in this link below outlines the actual verbiage of the law.
Personal note: The term “Dum-Dum” in regards to ammunition is antiquated and not in common use in the rest of this country. I could go on about my feelings on this, but I digress.

2024 New Jersey Revised Statutes :: Title 2C - The New Jersey Code of Criminal Justice :: Section 2C:39-3 - Prohibited weapons and devices.

Justia Free Databases of U.S. Laws, Codes & Statutes

law.justia.com

I found and read most of this and now feel a little bit “stupider”

https://www.njcourts.gov/sites/default/files/charges/weapons16.pdf

NOTE: I found nothing that restricts the use of Wadcutters, Semi-wadcutters, Semi-jacketed, Soft Point, or all lead projectiles.
UNLESS OF COURSE THERE ARE OTHER LAWS THAT BAN THOSE ABOVE THAT I DID NOT FIND.
Sorry for the all caps. I want my disclaimer known.

Now I am going to go get less creeped-out and check my blood pressure and have some breakfast. I need something to throw up after reading all of that.

 

[trackskippy]

LOL, nothing about NJ makes any sense. Everything that's accepted as normal most other places, seems to be illegal and/or heavily regulated there. Even their beaches are a joke. Their idea of a "dune" is a 5' pile of sand at the edge of a 50' "beach", and you'll get arrested for playing on it. They will also fine you if you don't have a beach badge. Hell, its against the law to pump your own gas! The US border starts at the Delaware River.


I don't think anyone is discounting the fact that premium bullets can and do perform as designed, but I do think that a lot of people seem to think that if they use them, that means all they have to do is just hit somewhere in the vicinity of what they were aiming at, and that premium bullet will make up for a lack of skill on their part.

Aint marketing an amazing thing?

 

[ms6852]

I carry a .357, in reality it would not matter, it would still get the job done, unless it is Godzilla or I an no longer in the U.S.

 

[unclenunzie]

Which time. I think I am technically insane.
I moved there and left 4 different times.
But, I know exactly what you mean. Last time I left there was nearly 3 years ago. It took me 6 months to relax. I won’t be moving back there again.

I actually miss New Jersey but for the high taxes and gun hostility. Like California there's a lot to recommend it. I can understand your "insanity". But snow. No, maybe not.

 

[CraigC]

FMJ, JHP, and all common calibers and types of handgun ammo are dismal on tissue, no? It's what the bullet hits that makes it deadly whether it's FMJ or JHP. At least that's what I gathered so far from the data I've seen.

Uh, no. If the diameter of the wound channel and volume of tissue damage didn't matter, we'd all be using .22's. Virtually ALL of terminal ballistic theory is based on the premise that more tissue damage yields a quicker result.

 

[Mr. Mosin]

Probably for variety of .38, .44, or .45 full wadcutter

 

[Madcap_Magician]

FMJ, JHP, and all common calibers and types of handgun ammo are dismal on tissue, no? It's what the bullet hits that makes it deadly whether it's FMJ or JHP. At least that's what I gathered so far from the data I've seen.

I don't know if this works in practice, but a lot of what I have seen and heard is about the sharp edges on wide-meplat wadcutter and SWC bullets causing a cutting effect on tissue, while the rounded ogive of a RN/FMJ bullet tends to have more of an 'icepick' effect that causes a smaller puncture wound that pushes tissue aside.

 

[CDW4ME]

Shot placement is a variable that is not completely under ones control in a self defense situation...
Caliber, bullet type and capacity are.

With proper shot placement and penetration, caliber and bullet type doesn't matter much when it comes to stopping a threat is my point, whether it's JHP or FMJ.

You can't guarantee proper shot placement.

I am in a thread (yours) asking about defensive ammo selection if HP is not a option.
Two other threads you have done recently seem to indicate that caliber matters to you.
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/opinions-on-the-glock-29-for-edc.933146/
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/velocity-and-muzzle-energy-vs-incapacitation.936905/

 

[trackskippy]

One thing's for sure, you cant guarantee anything, with anything.

So, the only option then is to get good at doing your best in repetitive practice and under a bit of stress, at "trying" to go for that guarantee, and then, load them up, until they no longer are "up", and are down and out. Repetitive DVC.

 

[sgt127]

Winchester M1152 Active Duty 9mm Luger Ammo - 500 Rounds of 115 Grain FMJ Flat Nose - Bulk Case - WIN9MHSC| SGAmmo.comSGAmmo.com

Prepare for duty with 500 rounds of Winchester M1152 Active Duty 9mm Luger Ammo in 115 Grain FMJ Flat Nose (WIN9MHSC). This bulk ammunition is designed for reliability and consistent performance, making it an ideal choice for your training and self-defense needs. Stock up today and shoot with...

www.sgammo.com

Cheap. Flat point. What it lacks in expansion, it sure makes up in velocity. 1320 FPS.

 

[jmr40]

Studies going back decades show FMJ ammo from both 9mm and 45 ACP get one shot stops about 60-70% of the time with solid hits. The better HP ammo available in any of the common cartridges today (9mm. 40. 45. etc.) are effective 80-90% of the time with good hits. If possible, I'd take that 20% improvement in my odds every time. But 60-70% isn't horrible especially if you plan on firing multiple shots.

The US military came to the conclusion that more hits from 9mm FMJ were better than fewer hits from 45 ACP FMJ in 1946. If I had to use FMJ ammo I'd follow the lead of the military and choose a 9mm NATO load or whatever I could find that was close to it and plan on firing 2-3 shots minimum. Those will have a 124 gr bullet at 1200-1250 fps. Some guns such as the Beretta with 5" barrels may go over 1300 fps.

 

[Styx]

You can't guarantee proper shot placement.

I am in a thread (yours) asking about defensive ammo selection if HP is not a option.
Two other threads you have done recently seem to indicate that caliber matters to you.
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/opinions-on-the-glock-29-for-edc.933146/
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/velocity-and-muzzle-energy-vs-incapacitation.936905/

I did at one point, but then my point of view changed with the data I received. I used to buy into the idea that "energy transfer" and the more velocity and muzzle energy a handgun caliber had the more of a man stopper it was. In general, I don't believe the difference between common handgun caliber if the penetration and shot placement are similar.

Nothing is guaranteed, but you do have some control of shot placement and where your rounds are going. Whether you believe caliber, bullet type, etc. matters or not, it's all pointless to worry about if you're missing or getting hits that aren't incapacitating the threat.

 

[CDW4ME]

What about for 9mm or 40s&w?

I don't see any flat nose bonded FMJ 9mm or 40s&w unfortunately.

I did at one point, but then my point of view changed with the data I received. I used to buy into the idea that "energy transfer" and the more velocity and muzzle energy a handgun caliber had the more of a man stopper it was. In general, I don't believe the difference between common handgun caliber if the penetration and shot placement are similar.

Nothing is guaranteed, but you do have some control of shot placement and where your rounds are going. Whether you believe caliber, bullet type, etc. matters or not, it's all pointless to worry about if you're missing or getting hits that aren't incapacitating the threat.

You were talking 9mm and 40 in this thread, not 22lr, 25 acp, 32 acp; so, you believe there is a difference, unless you changed your mind since your prior posts in this thread.
This is your thread asking about defensive FMJ ammo options, asking/implying that some options may be better than others.
Now it is shot placement...