EDC/Defensive FMJ ammo options?

[Styx]

You were talking 9mm and 40 in this thread, not 22lr, 25 acp, 32 acp; so, you believe there is a difference, unless you changed your mind since your prior posts in this thread.

With proper shot placement and penetration, caliber and bullet type doesn't matter much when it comes to stopping a threat is my point, whether it's JHP or FMJ.

First, you do know what "in general" means correct? It means "usually" not all the time. Next, I did not say there wasn't a difference between different calibers, as you're attempting to frame it. What I did say is there's not much difference between common handgun calibers IF they have similar penetration and shot placement. You're ignoring the second part of what I stated.

With regards to my mindset of wanting to carry a 10mm and 44mag for humans, my mind did change. With regards to carrying JHP, my mind was changed. I no longer believe that expensive JHP is required to stop a threat granted the penetration and shot placement are the same. I no longer believe that it matters much whether I EDC 10mm or 45acp or 9mm granted I the bullet penetrates to a similar depth at the same spot on the target.

 

[CDW4ME]

Shot placement is a variable that is not completely under ones control in a self defense situation...
Caliber, bullet type and capacity are.

With proper shot placement and penetration, caliber and bullet type doesn't matter much when it comes to stopping a threat is my point, whether it's JHP or FMJ.

You can't guarantee proper shot placement.

there's not much difference between common handgun calibers IF they have similar penetration and shot placement. You're ignoring the second part of what I stated.

granted the penetration and shot placement are the same. granted I the bullet penetrates to a similar depth at the same spot on the target.

Ignoring? No I addressed it twice in the thread already, above quotes.
3rd time: You can't guarantee shot placement, it is a variable not totally under your control, attackers may move.
Caliber, capacity, and bullet type are variables that are under your control.

 

[Styx]

Ignoring? No I addressed it twice in the thread already, above quotes.
3rd time: You can't guarantee shot placement, it is a variable not totally under your control, attackers may move.
Caliber, capacity, and bullet type are variables that are under your control.

No, you ignored it in how you framed my position in your previous responses. You accused me of saying caliber didn't matter. Period... You left out the latter part of what I stated several times.

FMJ, JHP, and all common calibers and types of handgun ammo are dismal on tissue, no? It's what the bullet hits that makes it deadly whether it's FMJ or JHP. At least that's what I gathered so far from the data I've seen.

The above is the original response of mine to another member. You initially quoted that response, and that was the context of what we were discussing. That's what you took issue with...

Deadly (lethality) doesn't infer quickly incapacitating.
A pellet gun can be deadly, but not necessarily quickly incapacitating:
https://www.king5.com/article/news/...lity/281-45ef4ce3-6b38-47e0-8e3d-bfdd4abfa676

Shot placement is a variable that is not completely under ones control in a self defense situation...
Caliber, bullet type and capacity are.

The above is your original response to my talking about handgun calibers and how they act on the human body. I was talking about how the most common handgun calibers do not do much damage to tissue. They point holes. The overwhelming majority of people shot with handgun rounds survive. Many people are killed with a variety of calibers and bullet types, whether they are shot once or several times. The last data I saw on the matter showed that more people were killed with and even "quickly incapacitated" with smaller handgun calibers than larger ones. Regardless of the bullet type, caliber, velocity, muzzle energy, JHP, FMJ, etc., it appears that it's the shot placement and penetration that's most important.

Then you accused me of saying that caliber didn't in general, and you went on and on citing several post from different threads trying to accuse me of being a hypocrite. You were more concerned with that than the original point I was making. For the hundredth time, I never stated that caliber doesn't matter, and that's the end of the story. In the contexts of the original post you quoted, I simply was stating that caliber doesn't matter when it comes to stopping a threat IF the chosen make/model of bullets from whatever caliber reaches the same vital. If you do NOT hit a vital with a .32h&r or 10mm (whether FMJ or JHP), the threat isn't going to be quickly "quickly incapacitated."

To your other point that's kind of off topic to what I was talking about, I agree that you can't guarantee good hits. I agree that shot placement is not "completely" under one's control. Back to point though, shot placement is still all that matters when it comes to forcibly stopping a threat, and we all DO have a lot of control when it comes to where our bullets are going down range. Many common handgun calibers and bullet types can achieve the amount of penetration to hit a vital.

 

[Styx]

Other than that, I stated my opinion has changed on the matter since I started a thread inquiring about buying a Glock 10mm for self defense. It started with me looking at the LuckyGunner and other ballistic data, and realizing that most of these defensive rounds in different calibers were all getting similar amount of penetration and even expansion. That's the first time it dawned on me, and was the reason why I never purchased a subcompact 10mm for carry.

You also pointed out my preference for 9mm and 40s&w. It's just like some people are fanboys of .32, 9mm, .45, 10mm, etc. Yes, I have a preference for those calibers because I have several guns and a bunch of ammo for those calibers. It's what I have been carrying for many years, and I've grown found of them. The ammo for 9mm and 40s&w are typically less expensive than several other duty calibers. I also both of those calibers for reasons that have nothing to do with ballistics. I reckon if most of my firearms were in .32 and 30 super carry and the ammo was more affordable, those would probably be my preference. All of the above can achieve adequate penetration, so I would not have any issue carrying any of them.

 

[Styx]

Dbl post

 

[CraigC]

Go shoot a deer with hardball and report back that you think bullet shape doesn't matter.

 

[CDW4ME]

The above is your original response to my talking about handgun calibers and how they act on the human body. I was talking about how the most common handgun calibers do not do much damage to tissue. They point holes. The overwhelming majority of people shot with handgun rounds survive. Many people are killed with a variety of calibers and bullet types, whether they are shot once or several times. The last data I saw on the matter showed that more people were killed with and even "quickly incapacitated" with smaller handgun calibers than larger ones. Regardless of the bullet type, caliber, velocity, muzzle energy, JHP, FMJ, etc., it appears that it's the shot placement and penetration that's most important.

Yet you started this thread asking about defensive non-HP ammo options.
So someone says Critical Duty and your response is "shot placement".
Why did you do a thread asking which bullet type if you have determined the answer is shot placement.

It is like this video where she presents a problem but doesn't want the answer to it.

 

[Styx]

Yet you started this thread asking about defensive non-HP ammo options.
So someone says Critical Duty and your response is "shot placement".
Why did you do a thread asking which bullet type if you have determined the answer is shot placement.

It is like this video where she presents a problem but doesn't want the answer to it.

And your point, other than nitpicking for anything to bicker over? The context, which you ignored, in which I made that statement was under the argument that FMJ couldn't stop a threat just as well. Yes, I stated that shot placement matters most. It matters most regardless if JHP or FMJ is used IF the penetration is there to reach a vital. I started a thread about what what's the best FMJ option for defensive purposes, i.e., will be reliable, affordable, consistent, and penetrates well.

I did learn that some FMJ may NOT penetrate as well as bonded JHP, which is I later started I might go with a different non-expanding options like hardcast or wadcutters for revolers. If my only options were ball ammo and bonded JHP, I'd choose the JHP because it would be better at penetrating and not deflecting. I did not make any finite binary statements with regards to all non-expanding and expanding ammo offerings out there being equally under all circumstances. Me saying that IF an expanded or non-expanded bullet reaches and destroys a major artery, the spin, brain, etc, the threat will most likely be behind stopped just the same shouldn't be as controversial as you're making it out to be... I'm not sure what the confusion is.

Other than that, I didn't respond at all you your suggestions to SOMEONE ELSE about using Critical Duty. You quoted and responded to another member with regards to Critical Duty, but you also quote and respond to me about something I stated. I was responding to that. You are conflating the two.

 

[mljdeckard]

Id just find a good quality ammo and not worry about it.

I've seen a lot of people shot with FMJ over the years. It jacks people up. I've never seen someone ten ringed and be okay since it was a FMJ.

For the most part, there are very few instances where a hollow point would have made a meaningful difference in a shooting/gunfight.

The exception is deflection off of heavy bone. From my observations FMJ seems to deflect off or around heavy bone at a notably higher rate than hollow points. I've read that this was tested and shown that the sharp edge of the hollow point will more likely "bite" into the bone when hit at an angle.

There have been multiple times where I've shot my carry ammo by accident or something similar and ended up carrying FMJ for a bit. I wasn't worried then and wouldn't be now.

This. The difference isn't as dramatic as some people think it is. It's not like I have one plan for JHP and a different plan for FMJ. Carry the best round you can, get as many center of mass hits as you can as fast as you can.

 

[Lo-Profile]

If I lived in NJ I'd use a 230g flat point, round nose ammo like DoubleTap.


I know there's places that make a 200g as well

 

[JERRY]

If you go center mass, I don't think it's gonna matter much.

 

[Skinny Pete]

It amazes me that people think fractions of inches actually matter in any meaningful way.

 

[CraigC]

Of course shot placement matters. Shot placement always matters. In a discussion of terminal ballistics, where we might be comparing cartridges or bullets to one another, shot placement is a given. It has to be a given. You can't debate the effectiveness of one bullet compared to the other with another variable dangling in the breeze. Harping on it isn't an answer to anything.

IMHO, all this nonsense, whether it's about hardball or the "9mm is just as good" trbie, is people trying to rationalize what they want to believe.

It amazes me that people think fractions of inches actually matter in any meaningful way.

Terminal ballistics is a world of increments. You don't think a 20-50% bigger wound channel makes a difference? Are you defending yourself with a .22? Then it matters.

 

[Skinny Pete]

You don't think a 20-50% bigger wound channel makes a difference?

If you were a handgun hunter or in the EMS/trauma profession you would already know the answer to that question.

 

[CraigC]

If you were a handgun hunter or in the EMS/trauma profession you would already know the answer to that question.

I am a handgun hunter and I do know the answer.

EMT's don't care about terminal ballistics when they go digging through bullet holes.

 

[dickydalton]

quote: What non-wadcutter, JHP, or expanding ammo

All I know is the first post said this and over half of you said wadcutters or Critical Defense! Sheesh!

I'll carry what I want and stay out of New Joisy!

 

[Styx]

quote: What non-wadcutter, JHP, or expanding ammo

All I know is the first post said this and over half of you said wadcutters or Critical Defense! Sheesh!

I'll carry what I want and stay out of New Joisy!

 

[481]

Winchester M1152 Active Duty 9mm Luger Ammo - 500 Rounds of 115 Grain FMJ Flat Nose - Bulk Case - WIN9MHSC| SGAmmo.comSGAmmo.com

Prepare for duty with 500 rounds of Winchester M1152 Active Duty 9mm Luger Ammo in 115 Grain FMJ Flat Nose (WIN9MHSC). This bulk ammunition is designed for reliability and consistent performance, making it an ideal choice for your training and self-defense needs. Stock up today and shoot with...

www.sgammo.com

Cheap. Flat point. What it lacks in expansion, it sure makes up in velocity. 1320 FPS.

Good choice—and what I would choose—if restricted to non-expanding ammo (e.g.: ball). Out my stock Glock 17.3, M1152 offers a muzzle velocity (1,300 fps) very close the advertised velocity.

Friends don't let friends go to New Jersey.

 

[Peakbagger46]

Awe…I guess my first comment went away.

If I were stuck in NJ any FMJ ammo I used would have a Meplat. Like 147gr FP 9mm, 158gr RNFP .357 Magnum or .38 Special.

Did you get censored by the moderator(s)???

 

[MikeInOr]

If I had to carry FMJ and, I assume, a 10 round or less magazine I would be carrying a .45 acp.

My personal favorite:

 

[Pat Riot]

Did you get censored by the moderator(s)???

Probably, but no biggie. It was a smart-alec political comment.

 

[Lo-Profile]

quote: What non-wadcutter, JHP, or expanding ammo

All I know is the first post said this and over half of you said wadcutters or Critical Defense! Sheesh!

I'll carry what I want and stay out of New Joisy!

From what I understand Critical Defense/Duty ammo is GTG because it's not a "true" HP with the plastic filler in the tip

 

[JERRY]

From what I understand Critical Defense/Duty ammo is GTG because it's not a "true" HP with the plastic filler in the tip

If you're one of the few ("civilians") people that can carry in new jersey, you should stick with a full metal jacket unless it's department issued ammo. Check with the defense attorney in New Jersey. If you have any questions of deviating.

 

[Boom Vang]

Another video on the man-stopping wadcutter:
.38 Special Wadcutters in Heavy Clothing

If you're one of the few ("civilians") people that can carry in new jersey, you should stick with a full metal jacket unless it's department issued ammo. Check with the defense attorney in New Jersey. If you have any questions of deviating.

Public carry is legal for self-defense in all 50 states as per SCOTUS in Bruen. New Jersey is still part of the United States. They have a process for obtaining a CCW permit, and they are being issued, including to non-residents. I didn't say it was easy, cheap or without limitations, but it exists:

New Jersey Firearms Permit

How many times does this have to be speculated about when you can go right to the source? Critical Defense is NOT considered a hollowpoint in New Jersey (FAQ #13):

New Jersey State Police FAQ - Hollowpoints

 

[Outpost75]

The extreme heavy clothing barrier Gun Sam used for this video is unrealistic unless you are bundled up for subzero weather.

When he reduced the clothing to two layers of sweat shirt material wadcutter penetration was normal. I found it very interesting that old school 158 LRN fired from a 2-inch snub did fine even with the 8-layer? extreme heavy clothing barrier and it did the "flip" with good penetration.