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Elephant Gun vs Ballistics Gel

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by kje54, Nov 1, 2022.

  1. kje54

    kje54 Member

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    Just discovered this video when searching for 40 S&W ballistics test out of a carbine. The guy's nuts but it's pretty cool.

     
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  2. Roverguy

    Roverguy Member

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    Note to self: Don’t get shot by the Lott.

    That’s quite a round.
     
  3. Gordon

    Gordon Contributing Member

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    My son and I loaded some Barnes 350 grain TSX bullets in my .458 Winchester Safari at 2600 FPS and they expanded to 1" and dump two tons+ of energy in 30" of ballistic gel at 25 yards in such a fierce way the first block was knocked off the table into the air and the gel "flashed" as in the picture. No need for a Lott IMHO . I am gonna try it on an elk in Oregon next year in a stand of timber near a friends private lake- elk honey hole ! Shots average 75 yards .
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2022
  4. kje54

    kje54 Member

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    He's the one who had the 50 blowup on him, nearly killed him.

     
  5. Bfh_auto

    Bfh_auto Member

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    I don't think that is relevant to 40 S&W;)
    You couldn't get me to shoot that thing.
    It's pretty impressive penetration though.
     
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  6. kje54

    kje54 Member

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    Nope it's not relevant but I have little control over Google's algorithms.........
     
  7. Bfh_auto

    Bfh_auto Member

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    I thought it was a ballistics gel rabbit hole...
     
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  8. Robert

    Robert Administrator Staff Member

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    I've shot 470NE, 458 Win Mag, and 458 Lott. In the same day. I'll take the 470NE any day over the other two. Maybe it's the burn rate, or the rifles I was shooting, but the WM and the Lott hurt. No fun to shoot hurt. The 470 was a lot of umph, bit it didn't hurt like those other two.
     
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  9. Archie

    Archie Member

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    This reaffirms:
    Large Dangerous Game (Elephants, for example. My last wife might make the list) rifles and cartridges are designed to penetrate very deep and mutilate the vitals upon arrival. Penetration is mandated, not amazing.
    The .458 Lott was intended to better the .458 Winchester Magnum in terms of velocity. At one time, there was some question about the level of power of a .458 Win Mag. No doubt one can find the story on line somewhere. It penetrates something fierce.
    A dangerous game rifle should weigh around twenty pounds or so. And have a recoil pad. And the shooter wearing a padded shooting jacket when doing so. And only if Mr. Elephant attacks.
     
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  10. Old Hobo

    Old Hobo Member

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    Lever action for African dangerous game?




    Here's Teddy Roosevelt's "big medicine" rifle. He used it hunting lion.

     
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  11. Bill Raby

    Bill Raby Member

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    My 458 Lott weighs 10 pounds. Recoil is not bad at all. My 4 bore only weighs 17 pounds. It has a brass butt plate. No recoil pad.It has 4 times the recoil of the 458 Lott. I have never worn a padded shooting jacket and never gotten a bruised shoulder from shooting it.
     
  12. jmr40

    jmr40 Member

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    There were some QC issues with the 1st batch of 458 WM factory ammo from Winchester. The amount of powder placed in the cases was less than what was supposed to be in there and the cartridge initially proved to be disappointing. After the ammo problem was resolved and once folks started to handload for it things did improve. But it took a while for the bad rep to completely go away and for hunters to trust it.
     
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  13. RetiredUSNChief

    RetiredUSNChief Member

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    I think I've found my next squirrel rifle...
     
  14. kje54

    kje54 Member

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    :rofl:

    Load a canister round in it and you'll take out half the squirrels in your local woods........
     
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  15. redneck2

    redneck2 Member

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    He was whining and moaning about not being able to recover any of the bullets. A 5 gallon bucket filled with water or sand would be a low tech cost effective solution. Or wet newspapers.

    Many years ago I saw a test with a .45 Colt revolver that was used to take Cape Buffalo. It was loaded with hard cast lead bullets, and obviously specifically made for this hunting. It was way beyond a typical load. It got 48” penetration in wet newspaper
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2022
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  16. Archie

    Archie Member

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    Good for you! I've developed loads for a .458 Winchester and a .450/.400 Nitro Express 3 1/2 inch. Neither was what I think of as 'fun'. I could fire either rifle at need, but I feel that 'need' would likely be one of the dangerous animals trying to damage me.
     
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  17. bfoosh006

    bfoosh006 Member

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    The 458 Lott is a beast.
    My Ruger No. 1 will shoot through 39 1/2 inches of pine with a 500gr Hornady FMJ bullet.

    .224 62gr M855 bullet, 600gr Barnes Original , Fired 500gr Hornady ( the pine one ) , 500gr barnes X bullet ( also fired into the pine )

    IMG_0339 (2).jpg

    IMG_1124.jpg

    Recoil wise... I wouldn't want to fire many rounds while seated at a bench.

    Standing, you can roll with the recoil.
     
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  18. kje54

    kje54 Member

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    Standing, you can roll with the recoil.

    recoil.gif
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2022
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  19. 3Crows

    3Crows Member

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    I was doing some reading on the Lott and it seems it can be loaded down to Trapdoor levels or "Marlin" level loads which in that rifle might not be too bad. I did not see any elephants there so not sure 6000 fpe is needed!
     
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  20. illinoisburt

    illinoisburt Member

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    Yes the rifles are powerful however in some respects this is really a demonstration of bullets shape and construction. I recall a few years back Sports Afield had an article on dangerous game bullets which concluded the rounded flat nose solids had best straight line penetration, generally getting 1/4 to 1/2 again more over the standard round nose solids. If you look back at many of the old African safari accounts they were using steel or cupernickel jacketed round nose ball ammunition. Many of the stories were embellished of course but they still accounted for huge numbers of animals. Modern spitzer FMJ does not track true. Yawing changes direction and often decreases total penetration while also creating a bigger wound channel (bullets often break at the cannelure or fragment as well). If you loaded a 308 with 200 grain brass solid bullet with similar profile to these 458 rounds chances are pretty good it would penetrate the blocks as well.

    Fyi this is pretty well know in the magnum handgun world. A hard cast Keith style bullet pretty much fits this design. It not uncommon to get deep penetration with these revolver rounds.
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2022
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  21. Gordon

    Gordon Contributing Member

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    Many fun years with the .45-70 reloading . I have loaded 300 grain HP thru 500 grain cast and jacketed ammo , from subsonic thru too hot and had to back off the various guns. I first had experience with the .458 Winchester Mag in mid 1980s when I bought a new Win Model 70 push feed Safari to take with with my Weatherby Mark V .300 Weatherby to Africa - Rhodesia and else where on Safari and snooping around to write an Intell field report on my observations in the area I was in during those war years :) . I left that Winchester .458 (and my goodly stock of ammo I bought) with my PH as he could not get the Kynoch ammo for his English guns but there was some .458 ammo still around !
    I recently came across this 1955 Winchester Model 70 .458 Safari rifle in great shape with no modification , it also came with a 1956 Winchester 70 Supergrade in .375 H&H that had lyman peep sights from a Carmel estate . The rifles went very cheaply , considering. I was excited to reload for the .458 and bought some various ammo from Gunbroker for it which I would reload after testing . Anyway with a PAST recoil absorbing shoulder pad in place we shot various junk at the local sand pit and were amused with the results of the 500 FMJ on japanese car wrecks. Not quite a .50 BMG, but still impressive on the aluminum engine parts.
    Anyway we bought a box of Barnes 350 grain TSX hollow points and some Woodliegh 500 softs and two of the clear gel blocks as pictured in the OP video. The 350 grain Barnes copper bullets stole the show , with Reloader 7 powder we easily reach 2600 fps and they opened to 1" and released awesome turbulent wound channels thru 30" of gel -an on ! The gel when all that energy was released "flashed" and emmitted smoke and flipped the block 10 feet in the air ! Looking at the relatively flat to 300 yard bullet path at 2500+ FPS of the 350 TSX we decided to try it next years elk hunt. The area we are going is heavily wooded and shots are less than 100 yards usually so those express sights should work.
     
  22. Old Hobo

    Old Hobo Member

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    Squirrel apocalypse! Where's my .700 Nitro Express?!!!

    My1mZWFlLTQzODgtOTkyMy03OTQ5YmVmZWI5NWYucG5nIiwid2lkdGgiOiI8PTEwMjQiLCJoZWlnaHQiOiI8PTY0MSJ9XV19.png
     
  23. robin banks

    robin banks member

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    and you whining and moaning about him whining and moaning
     
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  24. d2wing

    d2wing Member

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    I am reminded of Selous the Elephant hunter using a pair of 4 bore black powder rifles. Once his gun bearer accidently double loaded a rifle and the shot knocked both the hunter and elephant over. 4 bore is 4-ounce balls and a handful of black powder.
     
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  25. RetiredUSNChief

    RetiredUSNChief Member

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    Heh! Hilarious!

    Seriously, though...about ANY gun I buy I automatically think "squirrel gun"!

    If I ever DID buy something chambered in a cartridge like a .458 Lott, I would definitely take it squirrel hunting if for no other reason than to say I did.
     
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