Emergency Declared After Anti-Nazi Riots

Discussion in 'Legal' started by mustanger98, Oct 15, 2005.

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  1. Biker

    Biker Member

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    Cosmoline
    Gotta part ways with you here. I can't deal well with the pinheads either, but they are protected in our country as are Jews who advocate the killing of all Palestinians, Palestinians who advocate the killing of all Jews, Black Supremists who advocate the killing of all, well, Jews and Whites, Brown Beret/La Raza types who advocate the reconquista of 'aztlan' through any means necessary, including the killing of whites and blacks, so forth, so on.
    Why single out the KKKers? They're no better or worse than the others.
    Biker
     
  2. spacemanspiff

    spacemanspiff Senior Member

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    lets split hairs for a moment cosmo, if only to clarify your point of view....

    who do you lump in with the nazis? white supremicists? seperatists? rednecks who fly Old Glory? the brotherhood? national socialist movement?


    to the rest of the class, how different is cosmos beliefs from those who wish to kill all muslims? or for that matter, the wish of muslims to kill all infidels (yes, aside from the obvious instructions from muhummed to wage jihad blah blah blah), or the desire of extraterrestials to kill all humans? wait, that last one might have just been the ad campaign of a video game?

    i can't find fault with cosmos arguments, save for its something one might only reveal in strict confidence to a close personal associate. granted he did also say he'd find something to occupy his time with so he wouldnt follow through with what he wants to do.....

    i think what we need to ask is if cosmolines belief that all nazis deserve to die holds any validity, whether or not its in poor taste to discuss the matter at all.
     
  3. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline Member

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    Nazis are nazis. Maybe that's part of the confusion. I'm not talking about white separatists, Klan members, or whatever. I'm talking about nazis and neo-nazis. The fellows who want us to worship Hitler and in their dark dreams want the US to become what Germany was in the late 1930's. Kill the Jews and Blacks, instutite racial purity laws, eliminate the federalist system and place a single all-powerful leader at the helm. Nazis. By definition they are an imminent threat and they need killing. While I don't agree with banning them through the government I don't see the need to tolerate some Nazi putsch stateside.

    There are probably only a few thousand of them even in the nation and only a few in this state, so the debate is academic. Maybe the ones who were planning to march weren't really nazis but just some version of white separatists, so perhaps the whole issue is off topic.

    It's worth remembering, though, that the David Dukes and David Pringles of the world are only too happy to wrap themselves in the Stars & Bars and preach what seems to be sensible anti-immigration rhetoric if it will increase their power base. But that's some bad cool-aid they're selling.
     
  4. Art Eatman

    Art Eatman Moderator In Memoriam

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    Rambling around a bit: Generally, it seems to me that the ACLU focusses on the First Amendment, and doesn't notice the others.

    Thinking of slippery slopes and camels' noses in tents, it seems to me that it would be an extremely bad precedent to deny any fool the right to march and yap, just because 1) There are few of them; and, 2) Their entire message is anathema.

    Some of that, "They came for..." stuff.

    We talk a lot here about lack of privacy from Government. Seems to me a good way to get a picture of yourself in the Gummint compooters is to be unpopular, march, yap, and in your yapping suggest the overthrow of the existing order. Unless the membership is already half-FBI, I can think of a lot of groups whom I'd have out there marching. :D

    Art
     
  5. longeyes

    longeyes member

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    Thanks for the information; I'm aware that racism is nothing new. But that wasn't the KKK that was in Toledo. And the Nazi group didn't, in fact, march. What we saw in Toledo may have been as old as the hills but it was expressed in a particular, modern form, and arose from some very specific conditions. I think you saw the collision of two racist groups, that's all, and as long as we encourage racial balkanization in our culture, codified or not, we will continue to see this kind of dangerous friction. We haven't seen marches, by and large, protesting the gangocracy that dominates American inner cities. Maybe it takes "extremists" to actually take to the streets. That's unfortunate and ugly but all too real.
     
  6. Jackthelad

    Jackthelad Member

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    Mods- thanks for letting this thread continue. It could have turned, but I am glad cool heads prevailed. Lots of interesting thoughts.
     
  7. XLMiguel

    XLMiguel Member

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    Thanks, Art, for making the point again - nothing is better for mildew than fresh air and sunshine.

    We've got to let them march and expose themselves in the marketplace of ideas. Their crap doesn't stand up to examination and critical thinking, all they have is rhetoric and emotion (sound familiar?), but when they're suppressed, they can cliam "Our ju-ju is so potent that the Powers That Be are afraid . . . " therefore you must join with us to share and spread the 'power and truth'.

    There will always be people who are too lazy to think for themselves, and blame others for their crappy lives, but it's up to the rest of us to hold their feet to the fire and call "bullsh*t!!". If they want to wallow in their own mediocrity, that's their choice, but we should never let them blame anyone but themselves for their situation.
     
  8. pezo

    pezo Member

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    It reminds me of the hurricane in New orleans. what do you do when a tragic situation like a hurricane and flood hit your neighborhood? You loot and steal. ok then what do you do when some kooky nazi's come around? you loot, riot and steal. :banghead: I dare not say anymore.
     
  9. TheEgg

    TheEgg Member

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    Then you need to really try a lot harder. Please re-read the cogent points made by Art in the posts immediately preceeding this one.
     
  10. Art Eatman

    Art Eatman Moderator In Memoriam

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    I don't deny that my emotional reaction to any hate group is "eradication". Trouble is, just getting rid of a few individuals doesn't get rid of an idea. Stalin and Mao got rid of tens of millions, but the idea of freedom lived on.

    The enemy is not the few idiots of the Nazis or the KKK or whomever. It's the body of ideas espoused by whatever group.

    And the best way to get rid of dumb ideas is by proving them fruitless...

    Art
     
  11. spacemanspiff

    spacemanspiff Senior Member

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    is it in poor taste to discuss who we think should not be breathing air? i'd say so.

    me, i think all rapists and child molestor should be killed. would i get as much guff as cosmo got for posting how he feels about nazis?

    edit - ooooo check out arts post count! 8,888.... nice!
     
  12. pax

    pax Member

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    Art ~ brilliant way to put it.

    pax

    Books won't stay banned. They won't burn. Ideas won't go to jail. In the long run of history, the censor and the inquisitor have always lost. The only sure weapon against bad ideas is better ideas. -- Alfred Whitney
     
  13. Byron Quick

    Byron Quick Moderator In Memoriam

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    It's really a balancing act. On the one hand, we need to respect the civil rights of people whose ideology we despise. On the other hand, we need to watch them like hawks. Consider the German Nazi Party, there comes a time when such a group's actions and goals constitute a clear and present danger. What's that point? Ah, that's the balancing part of the act. I would say that it comes when members of such a group use violence against whomever their ideology classes as subhuman or against their political opponents. (The German Nazis used violence in internecine struggles long before they used it against people they considered subhuman.)

    Case in point. Back in the mid-sixties, some of my relatives were members of the KKK. They got to spouting off at a family reunion about harming blacks in the area. Other relatives there informed them of some facts: a)we have black friends. b)We're not saying who those black friends are. c) When those friends are harmed by the KKK, then members of the KKK will be harmed in the same manner, i.e., you burn their house down and we'll burn your house down. From what I've heard, this scene was fairly common in the county at the time. KKK has been dead in the water around these parts ever since. They had a small march in a small town in the county about twenty years ago. Had to import marchers.

    As long as they're just talking idiocy, marching, and such...let them do it while watching them. Once they start acting on their idiocy, and those actions attain a magnitude which law enforcement cannot control, then it's time to consider other methods. Until the rule of law has clearly failed to meet a challenge, all good citizens need to support the rule of law-excluding their personal feelings.
     
  14. Beren

    Beren Moderator Emeritus

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    There's a distinction between punishing someone for a physical act that directly causes harm to another and punishing them for expressing a disagreeable idea.

    Someone who rapes a child should be hung. I agree. Someone who talks about raping children should not be hung, only despised, ridiculed, and observed.
     
  15. Mongo the Mutterer

    Mongo the Mutterer Member

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    Well said. We can't fix stupid, we can't fix bigotry, we can't fix punk thugs tearing up their community. Best to keep a close eye on them.
     
  16. Sportcat

    Sportcat Member

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    [​IMG]
     
  17. org

    org Member

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    And for good reason.
     
  18. c_yeager

    c_yeager Member

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    Does anyone else find it interesting that the media was able to identify these people as "gang members" based simply at looking at them in pictures? I wonder what physicaly observable characteristics led to that particular conclusion.
     
  19. Byron Quick

    Byron Quick Moderator In Memoriam

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    Many gangs' member dressed in particlar styles and colors. Gang specific tatoos and symbols are other methods that can sometimes be used to identify gang members on sight. Also check out the use of various hand signals. The gangs have a pretty large amount of visual signals.

    Knowing the colors and styles can be a survival factor while in gang territory. It's not a good idea to inadvertently wear one gang's colors while on a rival gang's territory.
     
  20. antarti

    antarti Member

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    The headline is itself misleading. These were acts of theft and property destruction, i.e. crimes, by a gang. It was a mob of looters and vandals, not "Anti-Nazi" protesters rioting after clashing with the Nazis.

    A problem is that the media and politicians coddle and make excuses for these thugs, instead of vigorously prosecuting them and exposing them for what they are. "Anti Nazi Protester" is a thing to be proud of in my book, but that doesn't equate with "looting pillaging thug" which is what the gangs are.

    I am in full agreement that the 1st Amendment protects BOTH sides of that march in what they wish to espouse. However, having seen the human toll Communism took (and continues to take) on the Russian people, I award groups like Nazis and Communists "special status". I would include any "death cultists" like the Wahabbis (sp?) and radical Islamics in that (admittedly) self-made designation. In that sense, I agree with Cosmoline. There are "threats", and there are "Threats".

    These people are not interested, not in the least, in anything other than forging an entire society into their sick ideological ideal, regardless of any obstructions in their path, and leave no democratic recourse later. Regardless of the cost in human lives, misery, poverty, starvation, previous laws or covenants, etc., they will create what they want by the truckload... DEATH, and therein lies why they are so zealous in their barbarism. To their minds they are never killing, but always creating man (whether it be the Aryan Race or the New Soviet Man) in a new and greater image. They aren't just doing God's work, they are convinced they are improving on it, or supplanting it. Just as the Creator made us in His image, these people strive to re-create it in theirs. Is it any wonder the results are so uniformly ghastly regardless of the names of history's despots?

    There are no "people" in their plans, only tools to be either molded and used, or discarded. The conscience or soul is to be driven out. It is the second casualty, after the mind.

    For these reasons, Nazi's/Commies/Islamicists need to be watched. If they have gotten organized to a point where they are going to start going around intimidating people like the Brownshirts of old, then they themselves need to be intimidated (or worse) into oblivion. Yes, that's a subjective call, but few things in life aren't, and I trust myself and my neighbors to make that decision far more than the gangbangers (who ultimately did nothing to the Nazis) or the Mayor/Government (who did nothing to any criminal and equally did nothing good for any law-abiding citizen).

    Sadly, the Socialist/Marxist/Communist view doesn't get much virulent reporting. It is becoming far more pervasive in everyday life as just "the way things are", and in our schools as "the way things ought to be", or worse "the way things WERE" (false histories and false visions of the America that was/is). I genuinely fear that when Communism comes (or rather, is finally fully here), nobody will even recognize it. Most will be hoarding guns and ammo "waiting for the balloon to go up" or some other rubbish, and won't even see that they, and their children, are done for.

    I know it may seem cheesy plugging a book, but if you haven't read Matthew Maly's "Russia As It Is" (after having been there to see it firsthand too) what I'm saying won't make much sense to many. Lots of big/fat books on Communist/Nazi/Totalitarian mechanics and leadership, none on its pervasively evil nature (and mention of common goals of Nazism and Islamicism) like this one.
     
  21. Mongo the Mutterer

    Mongo the Mutterer Member

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    antarti :
    No it doesn't. Great post, by the way.

    The reason that the S/M/C view doesn't get reported is that the majority of the media are propagadists for the view. This is not new. Research Walter Duranty and the 1932-33 intentional Bolshevik forced starvation of 7 to 10 million Ukrainians. Duranty was a "reporter" for the New York Times in Moscow. In reality, he was Stalin's propagadist in the US.

    The Communists killed over 100 million people in the 20th century. I can recall ONE movie, "The Killing Fields", about their slaughters. Ask yourself why Hollywood and the press has ignored this issue.
     
  22. NCP24

    NCP24 Member

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    Because they’re a bunch of dang commies!
     
  23. longeyes

    longeyes member

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    Is there a Hollywood "great" who has not made a pilgrimage to Cuba? Che is the reigning dead saint in Tinseltown, Castro the reigning living one.
     
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