"Enhanced Penetration" handgun rounds.

[USAF_Vet]

Thought experiment here.

Reading the 9mm vs body armor thread got me thinking...

Armor piercing rounds are illegal federally and in my state with a few exceptions.

But to be defined as AP, there are certain factors that must be met. Anything that does not meet the standard simply isn't AP, like M855, is considered an enhanced penetrator round.

So I got to thinking, could someone develop an enhanced penetrator handgun round?

I know there ist the LeHigh defense, but that's a solid round.

I was thinking something more like a cast lead bullet, with a tungsten penetrator core. Feasible? Legal? Worthwhile?

 

[Ohen Cepel]

5.7 comes to mind, I think the Chinese and Russians have also done similar things with a penetrator round which was like a sabot.

Not sure there is any market for it outside of the military and even there I think it is rather limited.

Would surely get gov't attention quickly!

 

[GBExpat]

Back in the day, even before I got my first carry permit, I had my Ruger Security Six partially loaded with some "Metal Penetrator" rounds that I had found (Winchester Super-X, perhaps?). They were conical FMJ.

With my working circumstances at the time (graveyard shift at a beach resort hotel) I thought there was a chance that if things went sideways late some morning (which they subsequently did on a couple of occasions) I might have to put the first shot thru the teak front surface of the hotel front desk.

So I always loaded the cylinder with one of the special rounds in #1 spot and the rest with my handloaded jacketed HPs.

I always figured that they were simply uniquely shaped FMJs ... don't know if they are still made.

 

[PapaG]

Lyman cast bullet 429303 was famous for penetrating steel plates back in the day. Our security trading instructor challenged me to put one into a Kevlar vest (vest against a tree, not on anyone). Old tech, 25 years ago vest, but out of the Super Blackhawk and propelled with a load of 22 2400 it did penetrate.
Genotype, gas checked, pointed bullet. Look in the golf original Cast Bullet Handbook for more data. I'm sure other bullets could be designed like it.

 

[481]

Thought experiment here.

Reading the 9mm vs body armor thread got me thinking...

Armor piercing rounds are illegal federally and in my state with a few exceptions.

But to be defined as AP, there are certain factors that must be met. Anything that does not meet the standard simply isn't AP, like M855, is considered an enhanced penetrator round.

So I got to thinking, could someone develop an enhanced penetrator handgun round?

I know there ist the LeHigh defense, but that's a solid round.

I was thinking something more like a cast lead bullet, with a tungsten penetrator core. Feasible? Legal? Worthwhile?

I would think that the inclusion of tungsten in the construction of the ammunition would render it "armor piercing" according to Federal statute.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Get a Glock 35, .357 Sig barrel, and 90 gr fmj. 1800 fps. Should go through soft body armor.

Or use big boy stuff. 9x25 Dillon with 115 gr fmj at 1800 fps 6 inch barrel. Or 90 gr. Fmj at 2100!

Deaf

 

[shootr]

Yep. It seems regular bullets with enough velocity will penetrate beyond what one might think.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

A marshmallow will penetrate an Abrams tank, if you get it going fast enough.

Years ago, when there was this wild idea that Teflon coated bullets would penetrate body armor, I was assigned to investigate a suggestion the Army should go to Teflon coatings. I found both the Justice and Treasury Departments had done experiments and found it isn't what the bullet was made of that allows it to penetrate, it's the velocity.

 

[HankB]

The first Teflon coated bullets I remember were the original KTW rounds made out of a hard & dense tungsten alloy; the teflon was applied to a slightly undersize bullet to take the rifling; if the tungsten alloy bullet were full caliber diameter, it would skyrocket pressures . . . and if the cylinder or barrel didn't burst or split, the rifling would be swaged out.

In terms of a penetrator . . . a pointy design cast of zinc and driven to high velocity would seem to be a current rule-beater.

Or a jacketed (Teflon-coated?) slug made of iridium . . . though it would be a bit pricey. Use silver instead . . .

 

[Vern Humphrey]

The KTW bullets were designed to penetrate steel -- car bodies -- which is a bit different from penetrating soft body armor. Regardless, velocity is the key to penetration -- assuming the bullet stays intact.

 

[481]

The first Teflon coated bullets I remember were the original KTW rounds made out of a hard & dense tungsten alloy; the teflon was applied to a slightly undersize bullet to take the rifling; if the tungsten alloy bullet were full caliber diameter, it would skyrocket pressures . . . and if the cylinder or barrel didn't burst or split, the rifling would be swaged out.

In terms of a penetrator . . . a pointy design cast of zinc and driven to high velocity would seem to be a current rule-beater.

Or a jacketed (Teflon-coated?) slug made of iridium . . . though it would be a bit pricey. Use silver instead . . .

I'd go with the iridium. Since maximum possible penetration of a projectile is expressed as its initial length times the square root of the projectile's density divided by the target's density, the iridium at 22.56 gr/cc is the best option. Of course, shooting just a couple of those slugs is likely to set you back more than the gun firing it, but heck, you only live once!

 

[barnbwt]

"But to be defined as AP, there are certain factors that must be met. Anything that does not meet the standard simply isn't AP, like M855, is considered an enhanced penetrator round.

So I got to thinking, could someone develop an enhanced penetrator handgun round?"
It's called 5.7x28 SS190. Small steel penetrator exposed at the tip, atop an aluminum core, then jacketed. Very much like a lightweight version of M855 (for added short range velocity at the expense of long range velocity/stability), and some similar legality (except for the inapplicable/unnecessary ATF pre-exemption like M855 has even though it is not legally warranted)

"The first Teflon coated bullets I remember were the original KTW rounds made out of a hard & dense tungsten alloy; the teflon was applied to a slightly undersize bullet to take the rifling; if the tungsten alloy bullet were full caliber diameter, it would skyrocket pressures . . . and if the cylinder or barrel didn't burst or split, the rifling would be swaged out."
So that's where that stupid myth came from. Fascinating. Yeah, I'd bet a solid tungsten bullet would probably pierce pretty darn well . I always thought it was from Black Talons having a Teflon paint finish, or something (I would love to hear how those hollowpoints got mythical armor piercing properties somehow attached to them, though)

TCB

 

[USAF_Vet]

I was more or less considering a 9mm load since I already cast and reload 9mm. Some sort of substrate in the mold with the lead formed around it, rather than switch to an entirely different caliber.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Get a .357 Magnum, CCI shot capsules, and 93 gr .30 cal luger slugs. Handload! You won't believe what it will do!

Deaf

 

[eldon519]

I talked to one of those guys at a shooting range who was the rambling sort. He was talking about taking magnum revolver bullets and putting them in a drill press to open up the HP cavity and then putting in a piece of steel dowel rod. He claimed it would punch thru steel plate targets. I don't know if it would or wouldn't. I'm not 100% sure what the letter of the law is, but I doubted the legality of trying that.

 

[481]

I was more or less considering a 9mm load since I already cast and reload 9mm. Some sort of substrate in the mold with the lead formed around it, rather than switch to an entirely different caliber.

Dunno, but I think that you'd likely begin to run into problems with concentricity using a molding process especially if the core (substrate) had a density that differed greatly from that of lead. Sticking with the 9x19, it might make more sense to look at a harder (and much thicker) jacket material like that found in the Swedish m39/b 9x19 round (105 grs @ 1345fps) which penetrates 50 layers of Kevlar (see the 4th entry down on the page): http://www.amkat.se/index.php?Env=A...Value_A=9x19&Menu_Value_B=Ball&Menu_Name=Ball

It would also have the advantage of offering somewhat greater permanent cavity damage than a smaller caliber round after defeating said armor.

 

[murf]

a .17 caliber sabot in a 357 sig might work!

murf

 

[Deaf Smith]

I talked to one of those guys at a shooting range who was the rambling sort. He was talking about taking magnum revolver bullets and putting them in a drill press to open up the HP cavity and then putting in a piece of steel dowel rod. He claimed it would punch thru steel plate targets. I don't know if it would or wouldn't. I'm not 100% sure what the letter of the law is, but I doubted the legality of trying that.

Yes there is some things the law says about what metal you can use. I think hardened steel is a no-no.

Deaf

 

[eldon519]

Deaf, I also thought I recalled something about specifically what metals were off limits and had a similar impression. I know I read it once long long ago, but can't recall anymore.

 

[JShirley]

First:

27 CFR 478.37 - Manufacture, importation and sale of armor piercing ammunition.


CFR

eCFR

Authorities (U.S. Code)

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§ 478.37 Manufacture, importation and sale of armor piercing ammunition.
No person shall manufacture or import, and no manufacturer or importer shall sell or deliver, armor piercing ammunition, except:

(a) The manufacture or importation, or the sale or delivery by any manufacturer or importer, of armor piercing ammunition for the use of the United States or any department or agency thereof or any State or any department, agency or political subdivision thereof;

(b) The manufacture, or the sale or delivery by a manufacturer or importer, of armor piercing ammunition for the purpose of exportation; or

(c) The sale or delivery by a manufacturer or importer of armor piercing ammunition for the purposes of testing or experimentation as authorized by the Director under the provisions of § 478.149.

[T.D. ATF-270, 53 FR 10494, Mar. 31, 1988]

(italics mine)

Armor piercing ammunition

18 U.S.C., § 921(a)(17)(B)
•A projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or

•A full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.

The term “armor piercing ammunition” does not include shotgun shot required by Federal or State environmental or game regulations for hunting purposes, a frangible projectile designed for target shooting, a projectile which the Attorney General finds is primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes, or any other projectile or projectile core which the Attorney General finds is intended to be used for industrial purposes, including a charge used in an oil and gas well perforating device.

Hope that helps.

Gentlemen, let me be very clear. Finding the above- both sources- took approximately one minute. You should be ashamed of yourselves, if you speculated instead of taking the very minimal amount of time required to actually find the facts.

John

 

[reddog81]

What's the intended purpose?
I'd try to find the hardest lead possible and see what that does.
I'm sure you're average round nose or even SWC in FMJ will penetrate surprisingly well.
If you create AP rounds that meet the BATF definition of AP rounds you will be breaking the law.
Casting bullets with an added core sounds like a pain in the rear and will screw up accuracy.

 

[Jeff White]

I have to question the wisdom of giving up everything you gain in terminal effects from modern, expanding handgun ammunition for the capability to maybe penetrate body armor.

Handguns, all handguns are extremely poor fight stoppers. The only reason we carry them is it's not convenient to carry an effective weapon everywhere. Handguns are a defensive compromise to start with. Modern expanding ammunition that penetrates at least 13 inches in any caliber .38 Special or larger gives us the most effective tool in an easily portable package.

Handgun ammunition that might penetrate soft body armor will not expand, is likely to over penetrate and has substandard terminal effects. The one large police depart that was using the 5.7mm for it's SWAT units dropped the round after poor performance in several real shootings. And this was the ammunition that is not legally available to private citizens.

So again, I have to ask if the likelihood that your defensive shooting will be against an attacker wearing body armor high enough that it's worth giving up the terminal performance of ammunition known to be effective?

 

[HB]

^Agreed with the above, makes no sense other than to tinker. And there's nothing wrong with that!

Based on what I've seen shooting stumps, cars etc I would imagine a 90 grain FMJ with a pointed tip would be about ideal for penetration. However I know nothing of kevlar and doubt bullets would make much of difference. Pushing a 90 or 115 fmj out of a .357 would probably be as good as anything pistol launched.


Cops around stl occasionally get their take home cars broken into for vests and potential guns. A cop's vest would be a pretty sweet trophy for a crack dealer but I doubt many criminals use them with regularity. I suppose it would be useful if you were in the business of robbing drug dealers. But I don't sell drugs and people aren't trying to kill me.


If you come up with anything please post results, it would be interesting if nothing else.

HB

 

[USAF_Vet]

makes no sense other than to tinker.

As I mentioned in my original post, it's just a thought experiment. Seems like the overwhelming thought is that it's pointless.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Based on what I've seen shooting stumps, cars etc I would imagine a 90 grain FMJ with a pointed tip would be about ideal for penetration

Depends on what you're penetrating. Sir Joseph Whitworth proved a pointed projectile is a poor penetrator of armor. There's not enough metal in the point and the armor defeats it and deflects the projectile.