Quantcast
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Enough Already!: Abuse of the 9mm

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by Mad Magyar, Jan 23, 2006.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Mad Magyar

    Mad Magyar Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2005
    Messages:
    1,967
    Location:
    Arizona
    If you prefer the 9mm, be my guest, but the facts show that on average the smaller cartridge is not as good a man stopper as the .45ACP.”
    I’m tired of these gun writers maligning the 9mm. PLEASE: NO CALIBER WARS!
    I’m sick of those too, just a defense of a good round.
    Just a few facts: there are over 25 countries around the world, including the U.S., that accept the 9mm as their standard military cartridge. These countries have armed forces of over 13 million troopers. The notion that the 9mm Parabellum is not adequate to the killing of men is going to come as a dreadful shock to these 13 million users! I can’t prove this at the moment, but I suspect the vast majority of soldiers killed during
    WW11 had as their demise the 9mm, at least in the European theatre.
    Yes, I’ve read E. Marshall’s studies, Hatcher’s stopping power scales, FBI gelatin/carcass tests, etc, and I consider Jeff Cooper a mentor. And yes, in all honesty, I have .45’s a .40 and consider them to be great rounds. But for “Pete’s sake”, writers: quit bashing the 9mm….:banghead:
     
  2. AirForceShooter

    AirForceShooter Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2004
    Messages:
    2,763
    Location:
    Central Florida
    In my travels through life I can attest to 2 things.

    1. the .45 will kill people.
    2. the 9mm will kill people.

    AFS
     
  3. pcf

    pcf Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2003
    Messages:
    862
    Location:
    Arlington, TX
    I heard froma friend of a friend, who has a friend that's a cop, that knows a sherriff's deputy, who once new a guy in the Navy, that once talked to a BUDs dropout at Norfolk, who read on the internet about a Delta Force Recon PJ on seel team nine. He shot this badguy 28 times in the chest with his 9mm H&K SOCOM Tactical Recon pistol. The badguy laughed and apparently the diminutive bullet holes gave the badguy superhuman strength. Fortunately Chuck Norris showed up with a 45 and shot at the badguy. Chuck Norris missed (Chuck Norris' specialty is round kicks not shooting .45s), but the shockwave from the .09" larger bullet was so intense that the badguy was ripped in half and his ghost was seen running away through the streets of Istanbul.

    I don't know which is better, but if you value your life carry Chuck Norris with a loaded 45 and a roundkick at the ready.
     
  4. gudel

    gudel Member

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2003
    Messages:
    1,947
    Location:
    United States
    those who says 9mm is weak, will you be willing to take couple in the chest from me, say from 10 yards? we'll see if you drop right away.
     
  5. poppy

    poppy Member

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2005
    Messages:
    396
    Location:
    SW Ohio
    Mad
    If I were to guess what cartridge caused the most deaths, it would be one from a rifle or machine gun, not a pistol. Any WWII experts out there? poppy
     
  6. Lone Star

    Lone Star Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2003
    Messages:
    1,754
    Location:
    SW USA
    Item 1.) A person whom I know very well has killed eight men with 9mm's, two with his issued M-9 Beretta, the rest with a Browning Hi-Power. All ammo was USGI ball M882.

    All eight died promptly, as far as he knows. He couldn't check a couple as he had to immediatly exit the area, under fire from other jihadists. He probably didn't put more than three bullets in any one man. Some were hit peripherally before being struck in the center/upper body. The hits that should have put them down, did. That was with FMJ ball ammo. Good JHP bullets would porobably have done even better.

    Item 2.) I knew a man who died a year or so ago, who was a principal architect of the Rhodesian police anti-terrorist campaign before that fair country turned into today's Zimbabwe. He had access to many shooting reports, and said that the 9mm usually worked quite well.

    I know exceptions do occur, but that is what they are: exceptions. Many involve individuals on narcotics, who would be hard to stop with anything in a normal handgun.

    And that's my two cents' worth.

    Lone Star
     
  7. Biker

    Biker Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2005
    Messages:
    6,105
    Location:
    Idaho
    Someone has to say it...A 9mm may expand, but a .45 never shrinks.:neener:
    Biker
     
  8. bobaloo

    bobaloo Member

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2005
    Messages:
    172
    Funny how people who think a 5-shot 38 Special is an acceptable carry gun will mock a 13 round 9mm. Been doing a lot of looking lately and it seems to me that the ballistics of a modern 9mm round are every bit as good or better than the 38 Special, just in a much smaller package.
     
  9. mtnbkr

    mtnbkr Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2002
    Messages:
    3,108
    Location:
    Manassas, Va
    Boo effin hoo. I'm sick of your defense of the 9mm. :p

    I wouldn't let you shoot me in the pinky with a bb gun. What does that say about the bb gun? Nothing. It says I won't accept stupid challenges.

    Chris
     
  10. Biker

    Biker Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2005
    Messages:
    6,105
    Location:
    Idaho
    That's true, bobaloo, but if I can carry a 13 round 9mm, I can carry something similar in size and weight in a .40 or .45. Having said that, I own 'nines' in the Glock 19 and 26 configurations, but for the same trouble, I can carry my Glock 23 or 27 in .40.
    I like my .38 snubby because I can just throw it in my pocket and I'm good to go with no safety worries.
    Biker
     
  11. Mad Magyar

    Mad Magyar Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2005
    Messages:
    1,967
    Location:
    Arizona
    Poppy, you could be right...I know that the German Wehrmacht ground forces, Finns, Belgians, Italians, Portuguese, Dutch, Bulgarians, Hungarians, Rumanians, all fired the nine millimeter. IIRC, the German submachine gun ammo needs to be included. Again, I am only surmising...:scrutiny:
    Again, not argueing about the .45 not being a stopper; just that the 9 has a history also....:)
     
  12. 000Buck

    000Buck Member

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2003
    Messages:
    409
    Location:
    PA
    Two arguments we always see in these threads:
    1. If ??mm/??cal is so weak, would you let me shoot you in the chest with it?
    WHAT?! So that means anything you dont think is quite up to snuff to carry means you are willing to get shot with it for an experiment? Do you carry a .22 caliber pocket gun? NO?! Can I shoot you with one?

    2. Well, lots of people were killed in this or that war with ??mm/??cal, so it must be great.
    Not really, I am sure WWII could have been fought with .22 caliber weapons, there would have just been a whole lot more shooting before battles were over...there would still be lots of dead people. That doesnt make me want to carry a .22 caliber.

    Im not saying anything against 9mm, I carry it primarily and think it is probably 99% as deadly as 45, but the arguments being made are too simple.
     
  13. akanotken

    akanotken Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2003
    Messages:
    334
    Funniest post I've seen in a long time!

    Nasty, hitech 9mm rounds have my vote, my preferred carry is p99. Cuz I shoot it well.

    But, let me know if chuck has any time on his calendar, I'd like to take him to my next 3gun match to use as my weapon. Don't know what class they'll stick me in tho.
     
  14. Marshall

    Marshall Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2002
    Messages:
    5,569
    Location:
    Oklahoma, Green Country
    I was speaking with man that lived next door to me that was shot with a 9mm and .45ACP, both FMJ. He told me the 9mm hurt him, he said the feeling was like a sting but worse. He said the .45ACP knocked him into shock and then unconscious because of the shear force he felt. Neither killed him though. I am just passing this story on for the heck of it, he could have been lying but he had no reason to do so. I'm not sure it means anything except that he's one lucky man. It made an impression on me though.
     
  15. R.H. Lee

    R.H. Lee Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2004
    Messages:
    7,377
    Location:
    CA
    Both are anemic compared to any centerfire rifle caliber. That said ™, humans aren't all that tough. Both will penetrate deeply enough to be effective self defense rounds. A doctor probably couldn't differentiate between the wound channels. It's an either/or IMO. They're interchangeable and one has no particular advantage over the other.

    I'd bet that bullet placement had a lot more to do with that than caliber.
     
  16. Inline_6

    Inline_6 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2005
    Messages:
    130
    Location:
    USA
    These caliber wars are a waste of time... ALL handguns are weak and ineffective. Period. :banghead:

    A few years at the National Tactical Invitational in PA, one of the lectures was on wound ballistics, complete with photos. The person giving the briefing is a former active duty Green Beret medic (18D), now a reserve GB and a full on M.D. He did his residency in NYC patching up bullet holes and knife wounds in the ER.

    The pics he showed of various people being shot with various calibers in various locations of the body... all of them went home that day, the next day, an hour later, etc. His last pic was of a person who was shot with 00B from a 12 guage. He died.

    Let's all be realistic... handguns are defensive and are only carried bcz they are light, small, easily concealed and in general convenient to have with you. If you know trouble is coming, or are going into an area where there will be (or could be) trouble... better take a long gun.
     
  17. antsi

    antsi Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2002
    Messages:
    1,398
    LOL. Classic. :D
     
  18. antsi

    antsi Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2002
    Messages:
    1,398
    Not going to argue with you about 9mm effectiveness - I certainly would not feel under gunned carrying a 9mm.

    But I think you're off on WWII casualties. IIRC, most combat fatalities in the ETO were due to artillery (incl. mortars). For firearms, machine guns take the prize in most analyses.
     
  19. nero45acp

    nero45acp Member

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2003
    Messages:
    1,404
    Location:
    Tampa Bay area
    I found this picture recently on another forum. (I'm sorry I don't know who to credit for it.) Anyway, the comparison is telling in that size-wise there really isn't all that much difference between the three. IMHO the 9mm is a perfect balance of size, power, and controllability.

    nero9mm;)
     

    Attached Files:

  20. bakert

    bakert Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2005
    Messages:
    1,668
    I carry either a .45 or a 9MM at times and feel well protected with either. Some times I even carry a small snubbie .38. Some people just cannot shoot any kind of .45 auto well but do OK with a 9MM or a .38. With today's bullets and loads the 9MM has some big teeth. Carry the gun you can shoot the best and don't worry about other's comments. A hit with a 9MM or even a .38 is much more effective than a little wind from a passing .45 slug.
     
  21. Thain

    Thain Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2006
    Messages:
    704
    Location:
    Lansing, Michigan
    Guns don't kill people, bullets do. ;)

    A lot of people complain that the US went to the 9mm to appease NATO... Funny that they never assume NATO did some research before picking that round.

    9mm is a fine round, so is pretty much any pistol round. But the plain truth is all pistols are short range, inaccurate, weak, and hard to control... But I can't fit a FA-MAS in a pocket holster.
     
  22. MCgunner

    MCgunner Member

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2005
    Messages:
    25,273
    Location:
    The end of the road between Sodom and Gomorrah Tex
    Actually, +P 9mm ballistics out of short barrels compare favorably with .357 magnums out of 2" snubbies. The 9 is a far more efficient round in smaller weapons.

    I think for CCW, to most of us, the size and weight of the gun are far more important than the size and weight of the bullet it fires. Energies of .45 and 9mm are equal for standard loads and the 9 is chambered in the G26, the Kel Tec P11, the baby Kahrs, the Taurus Millenniums, buns that are far easier to carry than even compact .45s and carry more firepower to boot! You even have POCKETABLE nines!

    So, you can be a paranoid big bullet guy like the author of whatever article you cut that statement out of. Go ahead, if you think it's worth it, tote that 40 ounce firearm to your heart's content. I have plenty of confidence in my firearms. I quit listening to the journalist "experts" a long time ago. Some of those journalists actually agree with me, though. They tend to be the ones that carry every day. None of 'em seem to much agree with each other, so why would I want to take their advice on anything? I'll make up my own mind, thanks, where caliber is concerned and what works for me in firearms. I don't need the advice of a journalist.

    I am a part time journalist, BTW. Fortunately, not a firearms related journalist. :D
     
  23. Manedwolf

    Manedwolf member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2005
    Messages:
    3,693
    Location:
    New Hampshire

    And the military can't (on paper, at least) use the highly effective +P hollowpoints that've saved a lot of LEO lives in the US. I've always felt that the 9mm was a little slighted because in combat, they've been limited to the FMJ.
     
  24. pcf

    pcf Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2003
    Messages:
    862
    Location:
    Arlington, TX
    Interesting Facts about the 9mm

    10. After the Infamous FBI Miami shootout the FBI determined that bullets that do penetrate deep enough to damage vital organs.....well......they don't pentrate deep enough to damage vital organs (tax payer funded study right there). This only applies to 9mm handguns...cause....duh....a 40 or 45 can penetrate anything.
    9. The M9 service pistol chambered for the 9x19mm cartridge is weak and ineffective. The Sig Sauer P226 was created through divine inspiration, and its power, reliability, and stopping power is God's gift to the Navy SEALs.
    8. reference my above story
    7. NYPD adopted the diminutive 9mm cartridge because the previous .38Spcl sidearm was too powerful and gave the Police an unfair advantage over criminals.
    6. The standard military ball round has a muzzle velocity of 8fps and is known to bounces off of the air after leaving the muzzle.
    5. The SAS continues to issue the 9mm Browning HiPower, so they always have a good reason to go to hand-to-hand, instead of using a pistol.
    4. The 9mm cartridge is so weak it can't even blow up the all plastic Glock pistol. Compared to the more poweful .40 Glocks, of which 7 out of every 5 produced explode, permanently maiming or killing the shooter.
    3. If swallowed 9mm bullets are easier to pass than .40 or .45 caliber bullets.
    2. I read it on the internet.
    1. The average male that takes these threads seriously has a penis the size of a 40S&W or 45acp cartridge, and has to compensate by claiming the 40/45 is better than anything else, allowing him to believe that he actually has something worth bragging about.
     
  25. MCgunner

    MCgunner Member

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2005
    Messages:
    25,273
    Location:
    The end of the road between Sodom and Gomorrah Tex
    They came up with that in NYC, did they? :D :D :D :D :D Sounds about right. ROFLMAO!
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page