Entry Level Target Gun in 45 ACP

Status
Not open for further replies.
See I though it was because there appears to be someone playing racket ball inside my red dot sight.

I do have a decent 22 with a Holosun sight I’ve been practicing with for a while now. I need to do some ammo testing with it find the best load.

My goal is to keep all my shots inside the black of an NRA 25 yard timed and rapid fire pistol target with a centerfire pistol. Ultimately the goal is all x-ring hits but I understand even the very best can’t do that every time.


25 yards in the black on this target?

https://shop.actiontarget.com/conte...al-25-meter-rapid-fire-pistol-target-b-37.asp

I can do that with a stock G21 but mainly because I shoot often enough and have used good instruction and training to do so.

I’d strongly suggest practicing on a target with a smaller black zone like the slow pistol target to help focus on “aim small-miss small” mentality.

Any quality stock .45 can do this. You just need to do your part.

IMO, quality practice and training is greater than better equipment on your budget.
 
I have a decent 22, a S&W Victory. With ammo it likes it will put multiple shots into a 1" circle at 25 yards. Even off a rest I still pull one now and then, but that's not the guns fault. As stated above, I've not done a proper ammo test with it at 25 yards to see what it likes. I tried at 10 yards but couldn't tell any difference. I'm close to being able to keep all my shots in the aiming black at 25 yards with the 22. I'm considerably further off with the centerfires I've tried. View attachment 1105487

View attachment 1105488

Without seeing you shoot, I have to wonder about how recoil affects you. All things being quasi-equal, the main factor I see when working with other shooters is the groups get bigger with more recoil.
 
This thread has me revisiting my former obsession with 1911 target pistols. Yesterday I picked up a Springfield Armory defender series 1911 for $550. It has fixed 3 dot sights, a decent trigger, the barrel is well fit to the bushing and it locks up tight. This, IME, is a good base for a target pistol and will be the this years winter project.

Sorry, didn’t see this post earlier. I’d say clean it, lube it, an shoot it as often as you can, including dry fire, before much modifications.

If shooting factory ammo, check out PMC. Bill Wilson has spoken about it on several occasions and likes how it has a more manageable recoil.
 
Without seeing you shoot, I have to wonder about how recoil affects you. All things being quasi-equal, the main factor I see when working with other shooters is the groups get bigger with more recoil.

I am not familiar with those targets. I use either the NRA Timed and Rapid Fire 25 yard repair centers or the 25 yard Slow Fire targets. They both have the same size aiming black of about 5.5 inches.

With my 22 I can usually avoid any obvious fliers and the groups are about 6”. I’ll throw a flier every now and then though, about 30% of my targets will have them.

With centerfire pistols like my Blackhawk and Canik the groups are a little bigger still but the fliers are much more frequent. Any string of 10 has a good chance of at least 2. See below.
E52F2029-6452-47DF-9567-7E81F2F6E8B8.jpeg
That was the last of my wadcutter loads for my Blackhawk; 10 shots slow fire. There is the flier in the left near the 8 and another that went low off paper in the 5 or 6 ring.

I knew both the wadcutter and 22 hole on the left by the 8 we’re off as soon as I heard the shot.
 
Sorry, didn’t see this post earlier. I’d say clean it, lube it, an shoot it as often as you can, including dry fire, before much modifications.

If shooting factory ammo, check out PMC. Bill Wilson has spoken about it on several occasions and likes how it has a more manageable recoil.
Thanks for the advice. See post #26. This is not my first rodeo.
 
I am not familiar with those targets. I use either the NRA Timed and Rapid Fire 25 yard repair centers or the 25 yard Slow Fire targets. They both have the same size aiming black of about 5.5 inches.

With my 22 I can usually avoid any obvious fliers and the groups are about 6”. I’ll throw a flier every now and then though, about 30% of my targets will have them.

With centerfire pistols like my Blackhawk and Canik the groups are a little bigger still but the fliers are much more frequent. Any string of 10 has a good chance of at least 2. See below.
View attachment 1106499
That was the last of my wadcutter loads for my Blackhawk; 10 shots slow fire. There is the flier in the left near the 8 and another that went low off paper in the 5 or 6 ring.

I knew both the wadcutter and 22 hole on the left by the 8 we’re off as soon as I heard the shot.
A piece written by Jon Eulette over at the bullseye-l forum.

Area Aiming; Accepting Your Hold
i_icon_minipost.gif
by Jon Eulette 9/2/2022, 7:59 pm


This little lesson is geared toward sharpshooters and below. It does everyone good to hear it, but hopefully this can help the shooters who are struggling to attain a higher level of shooting.
One of the very important things we hear over and over again when shooting bullseye is accepting our hold. It’s really important foundationally and what I consider part of shooting the pure fundamentals.
So for our example, let’s say a shooter can assume a one handed bullseye shooting stance and extend arm and aim at the bull. And the shooter can keep the red dot within the bull/black. At 50 yards the largest black scoring ring is the 8-ring, and at 25 yards the 9-ring.
So worst case if we are shooting our worst hold yet still holding the black, this would equate to ten shot scores of 80-0X at 50 yards, and 90-0X at 25 yards.
Doing the math; three SF targets would equal 3x80=240 points at 50 yards and 6x90=540 points at 25 yards. The aggregate score would be 780 points. Making the Grand Aggregate 2340 points. Again assuming the shooter shot absolute worst score for their hold being in the black at each line; 25 & 50.
NRA Classification for a 2340 points is 2340/27=86.67 average score. Which happens to be Sharpshooter (85.00-89.99 points).
This is what I think most of us refer to as shooting our hold.
Ok so now let’s factor in the obvious….the trigger finger. We can shoot our hold but actually be shooting it because of trigger pulling error. For example if your red dot was aimed at 3 o’clock in the 10-ring but the shot ended up in the 8-ring at 9 o’clock, more than likely it was a forced shot that with good trigger squeeze would have been a 10, but poor trigger squeeze put it into the 8-ring.
So where am I going with this?
Most shooters just shoot and don’t develop and grow. Let’s just accept this as a fact and move on. By shooting the pure fundamental of accepting the hold and squeezing the trigger without affecting the hold/aim, you will truthfully shoot your hold. Shooting pure fundamental means “so what the gun is wobbling/moving, I’m just gonna squeeze that trigger and let it break without forcing the shot off”. Trigger squeeze failures can be attributed to really just not having a good trigger squeeze, or not accepting your hold and snatching at shots, or waiting too long and going beyond ideal time when you should have broke the shot.
So I encourage you to train at truthfully accepting your hold and breaking the shots without interrupting the aim from trigger failures identified above. This lesson is is basically an attempt to turn off your “now”thought process and create a “new” thought process. In other words, many shooters are mentally trying to do five things at once and they will never perform well. Keep it simple. Lift gun, aim gun, squeeze trigger, shoot gun. Pretty simple. Leave ego at home and just work the fundamental.

So in summary,that would be shooting your hold. If shots are out of the black in this case, the trigger finger is putting shots out of the black. It’s not the hold.

We all shoot errant shots, that’s ok. If you do this exercise and 95+% of the shots are in the black (if that’s your true hold), then you should see that it has been a positive experience for you. Keep working at it and I believe you will see improvements. Also shot plans should be simple and short. To the point of turning on a switch and turning it off. Very simple.
By the way, you will shoot lots of 10’s when accepting your hold!
Jon
 
Without seeing you shoot, I have to wonder about how recoil affects you. All things being quasi-equal, the main factor I see when working with other shooters is the groups get bigger with more recoil.

I am not familiar with those targets. I use either the NRA Timed and Rapid Fire 25 yard repair centers or the 25 yard Slow Fire targets. They both have the same size aiming black of about 5.5 inches.

With my 22 I can usually avoid any obvious fliers and the groups are about 6”. I’ll throw a flier every now and then though, about 30% of my targets will have them.

With centerfire pistols like my Blackhawk and Canik the groups are a little bigger still but the fliers are much more frequent. Any string of 10 has a good chance of at least 2. See below.
 
I'd rather buy an older/beater gun and refurbish it.

I had a 1983 vintage SA 1911 in rough shape that I spruced up. Went from a gun that struggled to hold the 9 ring to something that will easily hold the 10 ring. And this was my first attempt at gunsmithing.
 
A 1911 is going to have the best trigger around and there are enormous amounts of upgrades and mods that can be done. I know some have had issues with Kimbers, but I have several and they are very accurate and reliable with no issues. You can find a 4 or 5” even new just slightly above your budget.

For target use, the 1911 trigger is a huge leg up over most any other design, in my opinion.
 
That sounds like how I’m headed. However a Glock 41 MOS is about the same price and the extra capacity is nice for multitasking. It will be a while before I have to make a decision so I’m still exploring all options.
 
Try out absolutely as many as possible. That’s the best way to tell what works best for you and you can judge for yourself. Good luck.
 
My requirements somewhat limit options. 45 caliber, adjustable sights, and ambidextrous or left handed.

CZ P-10F

Mag release is swappable to the correct side and the slide release is ambidextrous. A very comfortable pistol and has a great trigger for a striker fired gun. Three different sized backstraps to fit your hand.

There are a bunch of them on gun broker around $570.
 
Spend the money and invest in the most accurate firearm you can find. If the gun’s inherent accuracy is the limiting factor you won’t be able to tell when you have improved. You will also lack the incentive to improve (“Why should I practice…I can’t shoot groups smaller than 3 inches anyway.”). Otherwise, get ready to lose a lot of matches.

In other words, you can’t buy a championship. But you can buy equipment that is good enough to ensure that your skill is the reason you lose.

And finally, it’s easier to sell a fine firearm and recover your investment than taking a loss on junk. I have done it both ways.
 
Last edited:
The OP only has three requirements, you hit on almost one of them, the ambidextrous part.

Your recommendation is for a fixed sight 9mm pistol while the OP wanted an adjustable sight gun in .45 Auto.

https://cz-usa.com/product/cz-p-10-f/

You link to current production models. Look at Gun Broker, as I stated, and there a plenty of discontinued, new .45's available, with drift adjustable sights. At less than $600 they are well within his budget, even if he wants to upgrade the sights.
 
I checked out a Glock 41 in both regular and MOS versions. I like the extra capacity over a 1911. Would one of these be accurate enough to get started and hold the x-ring at 25 yards, which is about the size of a golf ball? I will be hand loading and can perhaps find a good load that way.
 
I've just never been able to get any kind of decent grouping out of glocks.

I've bought, tuned up and sold a number of glocks and just accepted that they're not a good fit for me. Which is a shame as they're nice, reliable, inexpensive guns.

I do however shoot 1911's well, and have learned how to tune them up when needed.

I recently picked up a lightly used Girsan, and I think it's a very nicely equipped and handsome firearm. It has an excellent trigger, above average for a 1911. Very well fit slide and frame as well.

If capacity is a concern, I've always had good luck with the Checkmate 8rd flush fit mags, giving me 9rds on tap which isn't bad. The Chip McCormick 10rd mags have a good reputation as well if you want to up it to 11rds on board.
 
A Girsan or Rock Island is likely the one I’ll get. Both are available locally in the desired configuration - 45 ACP, ambidextrous safety, & adjustable sights.

I have basically zero experience with Glocks, having only shot one once or twice. They seemed accurate but I don’t know their potential at 25 yards based on 10-15 rounds at 7 or 10 yards. My Victory and now Canik will hold 1.5” groups at 25 yards off a rest though the Canik requires hand loading to do it. I have a long way to go before I can out shoot them. My Blackhawk will do the same but I don’t think I can use it for the intended competition. Even if permitted, rapid fire would be challenging, more so than it is already.
 
A Girsan or Rock Island is likely the one I’ll get. Both are available locally in the desired configuration - 45 ACP, ambidextrous safety, & adjustable sights.

I have basically zero experience with Glocks, having only shot one once or twice. They seemed accurate but I don’t know their potential at 25 yards based on 10-15 rounds at 7 or 10 yards. My Victory and now Canik will hold 1.5” groups at 25 yards off a rest though the Canik requires hand loading to do it. I have a long way to go before I can out shoot them. My Blackhawk will do the same but I don’t think I can use it for the intended competition. Even if permitted, rapid fire would be challenging, more so than it is already.

One nice thing about 1911's, is they can usually be tuned up for better accuracy than most guns.

A new barrel will help, but they aren't cheap and fitting them can be daunting (or, more cost) but a new barrel bushing properly fit will extract more accuracy without a whole lot of work or significant cost. I think an over sized bushing that'll need fitted will run under $50.

Same thing with the trigger. A standard trigger in a budget 1911 will be OK, but you can tune and fit the factory parts usually for an excellent trigger, versus spending over $100 easily for a whole new trigger for a Glock.
 
Would a witness hunter in 45 ACP qualify? It's slightly more expensive but has that long barrel for better recoil control and frame mounts for optics.
 
Most everyone I’ve seen practicing locally uses a red dot of some sort but I don’t remember if they’re frame mounted. I would like to keep this one with iron sights at least for a while. I use my Blackhawk to practice now since adding a red dot to my Victory and Canik. More expensive might push it out of my range but I’ll have it look into it.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top